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To you, when did Britain stop being "Great"?

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AlterEgo

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DarloRich said:
is that really true? Communism, for instance, was seen off & I think the islamonut jobs will also be seen off via the power of MTV, play stations, capitalism and cash just as the commies were!

I will agree that we seem to be returning to an almost Victorian laissez-faire approach to the free market coupled with a rise in nationalistic attitudes. However is that all cyclical?
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I think to an extent attitudes are cyclical. Liberalism has started to consume itself and we're definitely seeing a return to parochialism and nationalism, at least for a time. The difference this time is it isn't founded on a bedrock of religion but something much less deep (even if religion is untrue!).

Too little time in schools is spent studying the effects and consequences of WWI as opposed to the causes and conflicts; in my opinion, Europe is defined by this war greater than any other.
 
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Essan

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I reckon we stopped being "Great" Britain when "Little" Britain - aka Brittany - became a part of France ....

So I suggest we drop "Great" altogether.

And replace it with "Greater" :D

For which there is logic ..... 'Britain' refers only to the mainland of England, Scotland and Wales - not the surround islands that form the rest of the British Isles. So if you come from the Isle of Wight, Anglesey or Skye you are not, technically, British .... The term Greater Britain might, however, be used to include all the surrounding islands.

Though we may then have issue with the Irish ;)
 
DarloRich

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shredder1 said:
The collapse of British imperial power - all but complete by the mid-1960s - can be traced directly to the impact of World War Two.
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no it cant.

American Independence, home rule for Ireland, the establishment of the four independent Dominions—Australia, Canada, South Africa, and New Zealand, the Indian mutiny, the Amritsar massacre etc all occurred long before the second war. That also glosses over the likes of Subhas Chandra Bose and his activities during the war

The end of the second world war hastened the ultimate termination of the empire but the writing was on the wall long before that date.

EDIT - personally, at least as far as India ( the jewel in the impirical crown) is concerned I would point to the decision of George Robinson, 1st Marquess of Ripon to draft & then withdraw the Ilbert Bill of 1883 (essentially that Indian judges could try British and Indian people equally in India) as the beginning of the end. This showed the emerging British educated, westernised, Indian middle class the limit of their advancement in scoiety and government. It was foolish to cave into the typical Tory rantings about change and do a u turn thus alienating the very people the tiny Imperial Civil Service relied on to actually run the country.
 
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DarloRich

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shredder1 said:
Well obviously BBC History have it wrong then, http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/endofempire_overview_01.shtml
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that is far to simplistic a view in my view

The second world war bankrupted us as a nation meaning we couldn't fund our imperial responsibilities or resit the desires of many to chose the method of their government. Something, of course, enshrined in the Atlantic Charter signed by Churchill & Roosevelt forming the basis of the allied goals during the war.

Immediate post war bankruptcy was the final straw but the empire didn't just collapse after that war. It was changing from the end of the Victorian period with a slow movement towards Independence generally . The end of the war pushed that wagon over the cliff.
 
shredder1

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DarloRich said:
that is far to simplistic a view in my view

The second world war bankrupted us as a nation meaning we couldn't fund our imperial responsibilities or resit the desires of many to chose the method of their government. Something, of course, enshrined in the Atlantic Charter signed by Churchill & Roosevelt forming the basis of the allied goals during the war.

Immediate post war bankruptcy was the final straw but the empire didn't just collapse after that war. It was changing from the end of the Victorian period with a slow movement towards Independence generally . The end of the war pushed that wagon over the cliff.
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Maybe you should write in and put them straight, it wouldnt be the first time they`ve got things wrong, but then again they are journalists, never let the truth stand in the way of a good story and all that :roll:
 
AlterEgo

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For me it would actually be 2016

This would be because of the fact that pre 2016 , although we didn't have an empire , we were doing pretty well . The economy was doing well , rebounding off the financial crisis , and we were still seen as quite a big force internationally

Now however , we have a PM , who has no majority , a squabbling ruling party , Brexit , arrogant posturing ( which just makes us look foolish ) , our economy is one of the slowest in the West and we seem to be getting very close to a US president , who not only is widely isolated from the rest of the world , but is under investigation , and one who is likely to be gone by the end of 2017

Hence why , for the reasons above , I believe that 2016 , was the year that , for me , Britain stopped being great
 
shredder1

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AlterEgo said:
I don't think you've studied history - opinions aren't facts, and a whole plethora of historians can all disagree with each other about various things, like prioritising the principal causes of decline in Britain's world standing since 1900.

The article you linked to is written by a single historian and is therefore not a "fact".
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I`ve not studied history?? Oh dear, I`d best send the Masters back then :roll: this is not actually an article though, its a reference to a new BBC progamme (fact), :lol:
 
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AlterEgo said:
That's true, but Western civilisations like ours are very much on the wane, and one wonders how much of it is to do with some of the last vestiges of social structure which went out with WWI.
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Depends what you mean by social structure? Are you referring to respect for people, property, institutions, civil society? My thinking on social structure then is one of minimal social mobility, wide inequalities with many at the bottom in absolute poverty, no free healthcare, poor housing, little safety net or pension, a culture of deference and only half of men over 21 allowed a vote.
 
shredder1

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sk688 said:
For me it would actually be 2016

This would be because of the fact that pre 2016 , although we didn't have an empire , we were doing pretty well . The economy was doing well , rebounding off the financial crisis , and we were still seen as quite a big force internationally
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Well we did rape, exploit and steal from a lot of countries back in the day, do you think that made us Great, mind you other seafaring Nations did the same.
 
AlterEgo

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shredder1 said:
I've not studied history?? Oh dear, I'd best send the Masters back then :roll: this is not actually an article though, its a reference to a new BBC progamme (fact), :lol:
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You have a MA in History and you think a selected historian writing his views on an old, archived and BBC micro site is fact and use it to try and disprove a poster? I find that difficult to believe, along with being unable to write in proper sentences.

Was your Master's from the University of Legpull? You can't kid a kidder.
 
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AlterEgo

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otomous said:
Depends what you mean by social structure? Are you referring to respect for people, property, institutions, civil society? My thinking on social structure then is one of minimal social mobility, wide inequalities with many at the bottom in absolute poverty, no free healthcare, poor housing, little safety net or pension, a culture of deference and only half of men over 21 allowed a vote.
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Well, I suppose some of the question rotates on your personal definition of the word "Great".

My idea of greatness is a nation which respects itself, has a civil society and sense of neighbourliness, a sense of duty towards itself, understands its own culture and feels secure in its own skin. Monarchy and religion are not particularly good things but they used to be the bulwarks of the above things, and are no longer. I despair at the lack of empathy in society.
 
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Strat-tastic said:
When people started saying, 'Off of' instead of 'off'. :p
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I would tend to agree insofar as this points towards a reduction of standards, whether it is speaking grammatically and correctly (I know that language does evolve, but 'off of' and 'should of' instead of 'of' and 'should have' respectfully is sloppy), or pride in appearance (should we really expect MPs not to wear ties, or should we see tattoos appearing everywhere, especially on girls?). Being great does mean being proud to be British.

Did this all stem from 'liberalism', especially reductions in standards in education and, dare I say, 'political correctness'? For 'reductions in standards in education', I am not suggesting that an A Level in the 1960's or 1970's is not at an equivalent standard as a current A Level, since I think that the approach to education has changed so much over the years that you cannot compare the two. However, pupils used to respect teachers and others in positions of influence; now the pupils tend to rule the classroom. How can this be right?

'Political correctness' tends to lead to avoiding taking decisions in case it offends someone - surely a great country requires great leaders who can instinctively understand the views of the general public without having to walk on eggshells.
 
Iskra

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WWII.

We bankrupted ourselves holding out against Germany and Italy on our own in Europe from 1939-1941, paying cash for materiel from America, then when that ran out having to build up colossal debts. We then gave the Americans free access to a lot of our technology that we could have made a lot of money from during peacetime, because we had the technology but not the spare industrial capacity to utilise it.

WWII then finished-off 'the Empire' as a concept, leaving us without its vast resources. The end of WWII then resulted in the Cold War, starting another series of arms races that we participated in, despite being unable to afford to do so. The end of WWII also produced the (expensive) Welfare state and a subsequent realigning of priorities from 'world policeman' to the domestic sphere.

I still think we're a pretty good country to be in, the only major problem is the fact we don't produce many tangible goods to export, which causes us economic problems, oh and Brexit.
 
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Iskra said:
WWII.

I still think we're a pretty good country to be in, the only major problem is the fact we don't produce many tangible goods to export, which causes us economic problems, oh and Brexit.
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Absolutely. This and our dreadful industrial output figures are a key cause for concern.

If we are to thrive as a nation we need to be able to make and sell tangible goods. If anyone doubts this just take a look at the Germans.
 
shredder1

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AlterEgo said:
You have a MA in History and you think a selected historian writing his views on an old, archived and BBC micro site is fact and use it to try and disprove a poster? I find that difficult to believe, along with being unable to write in proper sentences.

Was your Master's from the University of Legpull? You can't kid a kidder.
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I have an Msc in Environmental Management and Sustainable Development Manchester MMU, believe it or not, and a Bsc (hons) 2.1, I think they felt sorry for me ;) yes it surprised me too, I was expecting to get thrown out, lol, I also studied European economic and social history at HE level, and lectured for a while as part of my PGCE, at Huddersfield Uni, oh and did a spell for an MEng at Bolton Uni in CAD, just managed about 2 semesters and a certificate though, got bored, , grants back then, feel sorry for the kids today, but anything to avoid work eh, but to be fair I went back as a mature student and spent most of my time in the student union bar, getting stoned, playing guitar and chasing young women, so I probably missed a few lectures, but hey there you go :lol:
 
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AlterEgo

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shredder1 said:
I have an Msc in Environmental Management and Sustainable Development Manchester MMU, believe it or not, and a Bsc (hons) 2.1, I think they felt sorry for me ;) yes it surprised me too, I was expecting to get thrown out, lol, I also studied European economic and social history at HE level, and lectured for a while as part of my PGCE, at Huddersfield Uni, oh and did a spell for an MEng at Bolton Uni in CAD, just managed about 2 semesters and a certificate though, got bored, , grants back then, feel sorry for the kids today, but anything to avoid work eh, but to be fair I went back as a mature student and spent most of my time in the student union bar, getting stoned, playing guitar and chasing young women, so I probably missed a few lectures, but hey there you go :lol:
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:lol: Fair play!
 
LiftFan

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It stopped being great when the residents started being offended by every little thing possible...
 
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