Harbornite
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idiotic comment. What you think is irrelevant, parkways such as Bristol can be useful.
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My idea: Replace Worcester Foregate with cable car to Shrub Hill
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idiotic comment. What you think is irrelevant, parkways such as Bristol can be useful.
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Harbornite
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You didn't state Worcestershire parkway, you just said 'Parkway stations'.
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The more I think about it the more I'm warming to the idea of a frequent shuttle between the stations in Worcester on a dedicated track or guideway. At its simplest it could be a bus sized light railcar shuttling back and forth along a dedicated lightly constructed track. A rubber-tyred version would also be possible and, if warranted, a passing loop provided mid way. If automated, perhaps at very quiet times it could run on demand, like a lift. I like the mini metro of Perugia. As with suspended cable cars, small and simple cars make an attractive high frequency practical on a long line (2 minute headway). Cable haulage with steel wheels or tyres could be very practical at Worcester, single track with a midway passing loop in typical funicular fashion. Having the high frequency link with both stations remaining open could allow different trains to call at different stations while maintaining easy interconnection between them. Cotswold GWR services could thus skip WOS while Bristol - Malvern services could serve both while trains from terminating from Birmingham could just go to WOS to take some pressure off the limited facilities at WOF, and even extended to terminate at the parkway if there was a turnback facility at Norton Junction. Passengers could continue to make connections between all these services by using the shuttle where necessary. People arriving at either station could exit via the other if they wished, using the shuttle. WOS could be developed as a parking hub with a link to the city centre via the shuttle. The line would be just under 1km in length and I estimate a 2 minutes journey time might be feasible. With two cars and a one minute turnound, service could be as frequent as every three minutes.
As to the parkway, I think authorities should abandon all notions of stopping express trains on the cross country main line and develop an alternative site where the A4440 crosses the line, which would allow all Worcester=Bristol and Cotswold trains to stop, be much simpler and cheaper with only two platforms, have better road access direct from the southern bypass, and could have good pedestrian links developed with surrounding housing in St Peters and Brockhill Village. It could also help underpin further housing development in open fields to the east of the railway towards Whittington.
As to the parkway, I think authorities should abandon all notions of stopping express trains on the cross country main line and develop an alternative site where the A4440 crosses the line, which would allow all Worcester=Bristol and Cotswold trains to stop, be much simpler and cheaper with only two platforms, have better road access direct from the southern bypass, and could have good pedestrian links developed with surrounding housing in St Peters and Brockhill Village. It could also help underpin further housing development in open fields to the east of the railway towards Whittington.
And that's what I meant. It was a general comment which applies very well indeed to the proposed new rural station. I can see people using it who wouldn't bother to go into the centre of Worcester in a month of Sundays (except their partners perhaps, and then by car).
What in what I wrote made you think I was saying that parkway stations are not useful? Mystified.
Doctor Fegg
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You're a few years too late I'm afraid - construction is well advanced on Worcestershire Parkway, while the A4440 is being extensively dug up along that stretch, a new bridge installed next to the railway, etc. etc. The chance of dumping the current scheme and building a new station by the Southern Link Road is approximately 0.0 recurring.
A station there would also have the significant disadvantage of not providing direct trains to Birmingham.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Great idea.....................................................??
Now look at a map and tell me where you would put this wonderous thing?
I think the polite comment is along the lines of "pigs might fly"
So you want to build a new station in the mddle of what is now a housing estate?
Eek!!
Oh well that's that then. Direct services are great but have there been any commitments to make any more calls on the XC axis? It's a pity a platform on the connecting line between the two routes isn't viable to allow Worcester-Bristol trains to call, and allow some Birmingham Worcester trains to be extended and to terminate there, for better connections into Worcester from XC, also to Droitwich, Kidderminster etc without going into Birmingham.
New Guideway:
Blue - on unused track space adjacent to single line.
Yellow - on entirely new structure on the slope of the of the existing railway embankment - Light prefab steel construction on legs every 20m or so, or embankment widened with retaining wall as neccesary.
New short bay platforms to rear of existing side platforms at both extremities.
Passing loop at midpoint
Overall Length: approx 940m.
I does look quite a good location even in addition to the chosen parkway site, but there's not much of a service that would be suitable to stop at it with the parkway irrevocably placed now at the intersection bridge, just under 3km away.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
What might look suitable on a map bears absolutely no relationship to what is on the ground.
I suggest you actually visit Worcester!
(And yes I lived and worked there for 30 years!)
I suggest you actually visit Worcester!
(And yes I lived and worked there for 30 years!)
squizzler
Established Member
Lets knock the feasibility of closing Shrub Hill on the head right now with reference to that other satellite hub in outer orbit of the Birmingham conurbation, Shrewsbury. Like Worcester, Shrewsbury has five lines radiating from it (In Worcester's case I include the forking at Droitwich and Norton). There are broadly the same number of services. Shrewsbury deals with over two million passengers a year, Worcester as a whole deals with three million.
Now Shrewsbury has five platforms. It used to have four but the fifth was required about a decade ago so now five. Does anybody seriously think that Foregate Street, with the most up to date signalling system and layout, could handle the same level of traffic with two platforms?
You might as well shut London Heathrow and ask everybody to use the more centrally located City Airport.
I fear you might be struggling with the concept of a gondola lift. It goes over stuff. Not on the ground, not through stuff, but over. I used a satellite map system to see that between WOS and edge of city centre you would only be floating over some tin sheds. I suggested a few terminal sites in or on the edge of the centre. Play around with your favourite online map solution and see where you think best. Geograph can be particularly useful, here a re a couple of pictures showing the elevation of Shrub Hill over the commercial development between it and the town centre:
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/5491110
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/5557957
For the average Worcester resident who might often go to Birmingham New Street which situation do you think they would prefer:
- Go to edge of centre station where you can catch the required ex Worcester service. You jostle around on an overcrowded platform and the three car train from Hereford turns up. You stand the rest of the journey.
- Allow an extra five minutes for the gondola to a spacious hub station on the Shrub Hill site. You take a seat in a waiting unit. When the Hereford train comes it couples on and you enjoy the rest of the trip from your carefully selected window seat.
I feel your proposal is logical if we are looking at "the railway" in a vacuum - how can we best serve our stations - hence only using railway land and the existing stations. But people don't want to go to Shrub Hill. They don't want to go to Foregate either. They want to go downtown where the offices shops and bars are. I feel your proposal delivers fewer benefits than a "clean sheet" study of Worcester's stations would be able to, which of course I reckon my proposal represents.
Yeah, because having all the trains go form one station would be, like, weird
Parkway stations won't appeal to the true aficionado of public transport. I agree with the sentiments expressed by @HowardGWR. Providing car parking for the majority of people who come to ride your train is, in my opinion, a perversion best left to heritage railway operators. Nonetheless they are a good business opportunity.
...which is almost exactly what I was suggesting in post 71! I wouldn't bother with a bay platform though (boarding through end doors instead) or cable haulage because of the unnecessary complications that brings. Rubber tyred, independently powered stub axles, regenerative braking. Put a depot for a third car for maintenance on the site of your bay platform at Shrub Hill. Allow for expansion to an articulated pair or 3-car set if demand warrants it later.
Doctor Fegg
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Given that you said "downtown" rather than "city centre", I'm starting to wonder if this thread is actually about Worcester (Massachusetts), because none of this bears any relation to the Worcester (Worcestershire) that I know and visit most weeks.
From Foregate Street station to the "shops and bars" is less distance than most other city stations. Lots of the pubs (Worcester doesn't really do "bars") are on Foregate Street itself. It's 300m to the market place and Crowngate. 500m to the top end of New Street. Even the Cathedral, at the far end of the city centre, is only 700m away. The people of Bristol, Cheltenham or Cambridge would kill to have a station as centrally situated as Foregate Street is.
There are lots of things that could be done to improve Worcester's train service. Longer trains to Birmingham, an hourly Bristol service, and reinstating the full Rainbow Hill Junction to enable an Evesham-Foregate-New Street service would be top of my list. A gondola, a rubber tramway, a bionic duckweed-fuelled hoverpod or Floo Powder wouldn't be. But maybe I'm not thinking ambitiously enough.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
I lived at Lower Ronkswood, Tolladine and Warndon Villages and quite happily used Shrub Hill as it was convenient and easy to use. Ditto plenty of people who lived on the eastern parts of the City.
Really?
In that case why are so many Parkway stations so popular?
And why do they have such big car parks?
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Given that you said "downtown" rather than "city centre", I'm starting to wonder if this thread is actually about Worcester (Massachusetts), because none of this bears any relation to the Worcester (Worcestershire) that I know and visit most weeks.
From Foregate Street station to the "shops and bars" is less distance than most other city stations. Lots of the pubs (Worcester doesn't really do "bars") are on Foregate Street itself. It's 300m to the market place and Crowngate. 500m to the top end of New Street. Even the Cathedral, at the far end of the city centre, is only 700m away. The people of Bristol, Cheltenham or Cambridge would kill to have a station as centrally situated as Foregate Street is.
There are lots of things that could be done to improve Worcester's train service. Longer trains to Birmingham, an hourly Bristol service, and reinstating the full Rainbow Hill Junction to enable an Evesham-Foregate-New Street service would be top of my list. A gondola, a rubber tramway, a bionic duckweed-fuelled hoverpod or Floo Powder wouldn't be. But maybe I'm not thinking ambitiously enough.
Quite!!
As usual people pontificating who have little to no actual experience of the place they mention.
I like all of that and was inspired by your earlier suggestion. A full width end door arrangement would minimize the space required for the boarding areas. My only worry would be boarding times if a longer 'train' of cars eventually became neccessary to meet rising demand, but first I'd look at higher frequency in that case with extra passing places. Cable haulage vs self propelled would be something to decide during development and could be dependent on who supplied the system, but I believe there could be a developing market for this type of closed shuttle system offered by new players using autonomous road vehicle technology as a the basis for operation of a 'virtual funicular' rather than the expensive proprietory airport-style APM products from big players like Bombardier. On the other hand while it needs a big lineside winding house, together with the cable itself and all the wheels it runs on a cable system simplifies the vehicles themselves as well as their traffic control, with the vehicles fixed to the cable so they are guaranteed to pass at the loop with no need for vehicle detection, signalling etc. Ultra is an example of these new players, but in Worcester's case I think a larger vehicle than their Heathrow pods would be advisable.
Foregate Street is hobbled by it's weird track layout with two single lines. If it was reconfigured with more conventional up and down lines for all traffic (it's perfectly feasible to do this) it would have capacity for more trains no doubt. Shrub Hill isn't a bad location for a station either I agree, and it wouldn't really be a problem if historically that had been the only station near the city centre, but the difficulty selling your idea today is that one line en route to Shrub Hill passes right through the middle of the city centre and has an established station on it at an intersection with a main city thoroughfare. Not surprisingly, that is the more popular station today. I wonder how p*ssed off a long established commuter from Hereford (say) would be if they were told one day that in future they'd have to go an extra kilometer past where they're accustomed to getting off and then have to travel back. Say they had a fairly tight bus connection from the bus station nearby. The extra ten minutes messing about going to Shrub Hill and back could now make them miss their bus and have to wait for the next one 30 minutes or an hour later, or get up 30 minutes or an hour sooner for an earlier train to get to work on time...Yeah, because having all the trains go form one station would be, like, weird
If all stations were parkways, I doubt there would be much demand for rail travel. The railway works well connecting major pedestrian and transit oriented centres together of course but also to tap into more distributed markets for travel to those centres it also needs some edge city and rural stations with car parking, drop off points, and other local transport connections if possible. The layout of cities today with sprawling estates and peripheral ring roads often means travel from outer suburbs to a more rural station is more attractive than attempting to access a traditional city centre location. That's not to say the city site is now obsolete. There will be many users, especialy those closer in, who may still prefer using a bus to access the city station or be close enough to walk or cycle, and the central site will remain a destination for incoming passengers, especially useful if it's also an intermodal hub for the wider area. So no perversion involved at all, only utility and business.
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The only concept I am struggling with is the point of your 'bright idea' in the first place. And I am well aware of the fact that Shrub Hill is a bit higher up than Foregate Street/High Street, thanks.
No one would suggest shutting Shrewsbury station, as it is well-located for the centre - just the same as Foregate Street is, although you seem utterly unable to recognise this simple fact.
No one is suggesting being perched on a viaduct creates the perfect Foregate Street station, but that's where it is - that is still not an argument for forcing people to go to Shrub Hill and change to a people mover to take them back where they just came from or board something marching over the rooftops - which will need some form of supports on the ground and either need to come down to earth somewhere in whatever area you consider to be the city centre, or people will have to use lifts or steps to get up to a 'station' at rooftop height. Which reminds me of a certain existing transport location in Foregate Street...
Which edge-of-centre station? Shrub Hill? If the only station they are permitted to use is Shrub Hill, then that is the place they will want to go straight to from home, by car, bus, bike, foot or whatever means. Not faff around going to Foregate Street or somewhere nearby and get on a gondola - now there's an idea, maybe they could get some Venetians in to run a shuttle service up and down the canal... it's only a short walk up the hill from there to Shrub Hill.
And if everyone wants/has to go to Shrub Hill, then you have to provide radically improved access by road to that location - good luck with that.
And where, pray tell, is 'downtown'? As noted above, there are several places in the UK that would dearly love to have a station as central as Foregate Street. In any clean sheet study, Shrub Hill would come at the bottom of the pile, probably even behind reopening Henwick or a station at another site west of the river.
If there is lots of money available for rail investment in Worcester, it would probably be far better spent on resignalling, reinstating double track in every direction on the triangle and improving the Cotswold Line at least as far as Parkway and preferably beyond, all the way to Evesham, with double track and a turnback any at Parkway to allow services from Malvern and the Birmingham direction to run to and from it - or even get to Evesham and back.
Yeah, because having all the trains go form one station would be, like, weird
And the 'one station with lots of trains reversing' idea worked out so well at Gloucester, with most XC services sailing past the city.
Most people who use the railways in this country aren't "aficionados of public transport" they are people who want the most convenient means to make their journey.
Many people in the north of Bristol would never bother using a train if Bristol Parkway station did not exist. They would just get in the car and head off down the M4, rather than face the ordeal that getting to Temple Meads is most of the time.
In the same way, many people living in or around Worcester would never go anywhere near either Foregate Street or Shrub Hill if they had another option when it comes to catching a train. In the case of people wanting to get to London in particular, they soon will. Or have I missed the plans for a second road bridge over the Severn in central Worcester and new roads running to Shrub Hill station to transform access to it from all over Worcester?
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DynamicSpirit
Established Member
While not a simple solution....
- Build a new station around Henwick (called Worcester West or something) in a location that has room for car parking and terminating platforms, and a further station (Worcester North?) by the Elgar retail park, with some arrangement so that the station can share retail park parking.
- Birmingham-Worcester-Hereford services would no longer serve Shrub Hill, so - no reversing. People who wish to drive to the station could go to either Worcester North or Worcester West - whichever is most convenient. Those services that currently only run Birmingham-Worcester would be extended/diverted to terminate at Worcester West.
- Ditto the Cheltenham/etc. - Worcester services would be extended to terminate at Worcester West, as would those Cotswold line services that currently terminate in Worcester.
Obviously, this ideally also needs capacity work between Worcester and Birmingham, and probably on the Cotswold line too - including some doubling of single-track sections - to enable proper clockface services. But you probably really want that anyway, even without doing anything to the current Worcester stations.
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I forgot to say I would disagree with
I would avoid planning any layout or train services that require trains to reverse because of the extra platform occupancy time needed and impacts on through journeys - look at the "through" services that run via Manchester airport for an example
because it would prevent us reinstating a more sensible, higher-capacity track layout. Especially as putting even a third of it on the existing trackbed isn't going to reduce the overall cost by a significant proportion
... not if there's a guided people-mover on it - in the wider area!
I would avoid planning any layout or train services that require trains to reverse because of the extra platform occupancy time needed and impacts on through journeys - look at the "through" services that run via Manchester airport for an example
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HSTEd
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Land take for a ropeway is extremely small, it can ascend at at least 45 degree angles and the stations can be exceptionally compact
The journey time is so short the journey time will not be much worse than the time it takes to go down the stairs at Foregate Street as is.
The journey time is so short the journey time will not be much worse than the time it takes to go down the stairs at Foregate Street as is.
That's a fair point, but it would also be possible for the single track to remain just on the triangle while still reconfiguring Foregate St to have a conventional up and down layout.
The completely new layout above allows non-stop Cotswold trains to run through the middle at Worcester Shrub Hill. Clearly these would continue to stop at Foregate Street and make a new call at the parkway. Note I have omitted detail on the goods lines and in yards to the east of the station and the depot within the triangle is slightly simplified.
I agree with that and would retain and develop services that don't reverse, en route, in the platforms at either WOF or WOS, but retain WOS as a secondary stop for the city and an 'overflow' for growth on the Birmingham axis via either Bromsgrove or Kidderminster. Terminating at WOS, these could have potential for extension to the new parkway station at least. A new single platform on the inner Abbotswood Jn chord from Norton Jn could provide a terminate and reverse facility, and also allow Worcester - Bristol trains to stop in both directions. It would be about a 400m walk in a straight line across fields from the intersection bridge to the nearest point on the Abbotswood Jn chord, but perhaps another shuttle pod system could be deployed here to speed the transfer and assist those for whom the walking distance would be a challenge. Making the parkway more of an rail interchange hub as well as a motor-based railhead by having more local train and bus services call there could be instrumental in persuading operators to stop more longer distance express services there as well.
New Worcestershire Parkway station at rail intersection bridge with additional platform on Norton Jn - Abbotswood Jn chord for WM terminating trains from Birmingham via Shrub Hill and GWR Worcester-Bristol services. Short pod shuttle link system provided alongside connecting path (approx. 400m).
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For crying out loud. For the third (and last) time I am not against parkway stations and never said I was. I merely explained their existence (expressed in French, IIRC, perhaps that was my mistake).
If personal means of transport are made impossible to use in some future scenario, then they will indeed probably become white elephants, but by then, they will probably have become city centres themselves.
Darkinsider
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tbtc
Veteran Member
Sounds good.
We need to sort out the timetables - there are some shocking gaps.
For example, Foregate Street to Great Malvern during the daytime (https://www.westmidlandsrailway.co....8ejgNSUsrvI/wm1712_rc_14_hfd-bhm_v1_web_b.pdf):
10:03
10:19
10:32
10:42
10:53
.
11:32
.
12:17
12:32
12:47
...i.e. five trains in an hour then just one train in the next hour and a quarter.
I know that the Hereford - London demand will have peaks (much like the Holyhead - London service west of Chester), but that's got to be one of the most lopsided timetables in the country.
Essan
Member
There have been times when I have arrived in Birmingham (from Glasgow), with it then being nearly 3 hours before I get home to Evesham (30 miles south) due to the utterly pathetic connections through Worcs .... I am hoping that Parkway might help, but not confident. Reopening Honeybourne to Stratford and instigating a circular service would be better.
But I dont think a cable car between WOS and the town centre will help!
But I dont think a cable car between WOS and the town centre will help!
Both GWR and WMR are well aware of the overload in services between Worcester and Malvern at certain points in the day, but with trains converging at Worcester from three directions then running on up the hill, it's probably not entirely surprising.
Both TOCs are waiting for big timetable rewrites to address it - in the case of GWR next January and in WMR's case as they develop plans for a second Birmingham-Hereford service each hour.
However, there are still likely to be some short intervals between services, given the need to path trains to and from Hereford along the single-line sections west of Malvern, which limit the room for manoeuvre of timetable planners.
In addition, the Henwick turnback siding is now pretty much ready for use again and has been extended to take a 2x5 IET formation, which will offer an extra way to get terminating trains out of the platforms at Foregate Street by means other than doing a quick about-turn to Shrub Hill or Drotivwich or carrying on to Great Malvern.
Bevan Price
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Having read many, but not all the posts in this thread, my main points are:
1. What would your ropeway cost - including the annual running & maintenance costs ?
2. The chances of getting planning permission for something that would dominate parts of a historic city centre are close to zero.
Whilst having 2 separate stations near the city centre is not ideal - it is a fact of history and people just have to accept that.
HSTEd
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Such ropeways have been completed in urban environments for something about €20m or so, if you look at places like Koblenz with the Rheinseilbahn.
Planning permission is an irrelevance, such a project would almost certainly be approved by a TWA.
Which means you can do whatever the hell you want.
People are often eager to flaunt the legal immunity from planning permission that railways enjoy, but not unless it simply consists of more of the same.
It is also worth noting that the Koblenz Rheinseilbahn is in a rather picturesque area and was allowed to go forward.
When the franchise(s) that serve Worcester are all in net contribution we have to accept that, until then it exists because the taxpayer is willing to spend money, but why should the taxpayer be forced to subsidise an overcomplicated irrelevance?
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
A TWA has to undergo Parliamentary scrutiny, a somewhat more difficult and long-winded process than going through local planning procedures. Given that HS2 is having to build many miles of tunnels for what are essentially aesthetic reasons it is difficult to see a TWA for a visually intrusive system in a historic city having much chance of success.
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