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Isn't the NHS wonderful

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Barn

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Free parking just wouldn't work anywhere in London as people would use hospitals as a convenient car park for the station or the shops.

I would favour a paid parking system with:

- remittances for people who cannot afford the fees (e.g. people who get free prescriptions);
- convenient 'pay on exit' systems so people are not inconvenienced or delayed on arrival;
- sensible fees for unplanned long stays (the hospital tried to charge me £60+ when my wife gave birth, not as a penalty but just based on the number of hours we were there times the normal rate)
 
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underbank

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It's basically subsidising people who choose to cause congestion, pollution, and harm their own health by driving to the hospital, at the expense of people who do the right thing where possible and use some other means to get to hospital

With the closure of local hospitals and centralisation, people are having to travel further to get to hospitals, even for routine appointments. A lot of the huge new build hospitals are on "out of town" locations and are not well served by public transport. Even where services are offered in local health centres, the waiting lists are often ridiculously long as they only deem to provide, say, a morning or afternoon per week for things like podiatry, diabetic eye tests, etc., so people are pushed into travelling long distances to the nearest big hospital where waiting lists are shorter because they're doing several mornings/afternoons per week.

I'm sure that if you're in a major city, you'll have decent public transport to get to hospitals, but out in smaller cities, towns, and rural areas, it's simply not convenient. I.e. to get to my nearest "big" hospital, it would take best part of two hours and need 2 changes of bus. I can do the same journey by car in about 15 minutes. That's simply because of lack of direct bus services. As there is only an hourly service from my town, I'd probably have to leave the house about 7am to get to the hospital for a 9.30 appointment.
 

OneOffDave

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Err yes, lots are. Our two closest hospitals ARE closed all weekend. Obviously hospitals with in-patients or an A&E dept are open, but lots of hospitals don't do either. Even with in-patients and A&E depts, the majority of the hospital is usually shut down, with just skeleton staff (or on call staff) manning depts which may be needed such as x-ray, scans, pharmacy, etc. My nearest hospital has depts for out-patients, clinical investigation unit, xray/scans, audiology, dental, etc and is completely closed all weekend. Even walking through the main A&E hospital at the weekend, it's tumbleweed on most corridors with most depts and waiting areas empty. What an absolute waste of all that equipment etc. Then comes Monday and it's back to crowded waiting rooms, waiting delays for equipment, etc. Not so long ago, my wife had a consultant appointment and he couldn't even find a consulting room to see his patients so ended up in the faith room! Yet, come Friday, and that same department was yet again tumbleweed - empty waiting area, empty unused consulting rooms. Definitely needs to be spread over 7 days to make better use of the buildings and equipment.

In the last year I've had a non-emergency MRI at 0730 on a Sunday morning (hospital A) and last Sunday had a significant diagnostic test at 0900 (hospital B) so lots of the non-urgent work is done 7 days a week. The problem with a full 7 day NHS will be the cost of the extra staff to run it. For the medics that's at least paying for four extra sessions a week plus probably another couple of nursing shifts. Depending on the contract the admin staff are on there'll most probably be overtime payments for weekend working unless you recruit staff who are just rostered for weekends. I suspect you might have an issue with transport for the early part of Sunday getting patients to the hospital. You'd also have to pay for an extra couple of days each week for the patient transport services.
 

OneOffDave

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The big issue with the privatisation of public services is that the profit gets transferred to the private sector but the risk doesn't. If your private provider goes under, the service still has to be delivered and the governmental body responsible for commissioning will have to pick up the tab for this. This happened with the waste and cleansing contract in Norwich. The provider went into receivership and the local authority had to hire in other contractors and vehicles to cover services they had already paid for. This is tricky enough when dealing with bins and street cleaning but try replacing a hospital at short or no notice
 

DynamicSpirit

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The big issue with the privatisation of public services is that the profit gets transferred to the private sector but the risk doesn't. If your private provider goes under, the service still has to be delivered and the governmental body responsible for commissioning will have to pick up the tab for this. This happened with the waste and cleansing contract in Norwich. The provider went into receivership and the local authority had to hire in other contractors and vehicles to cover services they had already paid for. This is tricky enough when dealing with bins and street cleaning but try replacing a hospital at short or no notice

I don't think that analysis quite holds, as it's confusing different types of risk.

The risk that the private contractor faces is roughly the same risk that any entrepreneur faces: That their amazing idea will fail (their contract loses money) and they end up going bust and losing all the money (and time) they'd invested. And I'm guessing that's exactly what happened in Norwich: Company took a risk thinking they'd make a profit, and ended up making a loss. In one sense, when things work, the profit they make is the reward for taking that risk.

But of course when a company goes bust, the customers may also lose money and suddenly have to find someone else to take over their service. And that's the (entirely separate) risk you as the customer take when you contract out something. To some extent that risk is there anyway: Even if the Government or any public body does something in-house, it takes the risk that its financial calculations will go wrong, whatever it's doing will cost more than it expected, and it'll suddenly be faced with an unexpected bill to bail out the project. The only difference is, if you've contracted out, sorting out this situation becomes more complicated and expensive.

In terms of the pros/cons of privatising public services: What you're hoping for is that a private contractor will be able to innovate (or the threat of competition will spur them to innovate) in a way that saves you money compared to the Government just doing everything itself. There's also arguably a freedom issue: That if someone feels they have a great idea that will let them do something better than the public sector is currently doing it, then why not let them try? Contracting, to some extent, allows that. Set against that is all the additional bureaucracy associated with sorting out private contracts, possible issues of oversight of what your contractor is doing, and greater risks if things go wrong. With all those potential pros and cons, it's not immediately obvious whether privatisation is on balance good or bad for the NHS.

The trouble is, in politics today, the argument seems to be entirely ideological. The Conservatives assume, as an ideological principle, that innovation and efficiency from privatisation trumps out. Labour assumes, also as an ideological principle, that privatisation means the profits companies make must be excessive and it must be costing more than doing things in-house. Neither side seems interested in doing research and trying to find out whether or not privatisation does give greater benefits than costs or not (My suspicion is that the answer will usually depend on exactly what is being contracted out). And all the while, everyone seems unwilling to tackle the thing that really needs sorting if we have a long term sustainable health service: A serious discussion of what should and should not be free at point of use, how those free things should be funded, and (if through taxation) how high taxes should be to pay for it all.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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Free parking just wouldn't work anywhere in London as people would use hospitals as a convenient car park for the station or the shops.

I would favour a paid parking system with:

- remittances for people who cannot afford the fees (e.g. people who get free prescriptions);
- convenient 'pay on exit' systems so people are not inconvenienced or delayed on arrival;
- sensible fees for unplanned long stays (the hospital tried to charge me £60+ when my wife gave birth, not as a penalty but just based on the number of hours we were there times the normal rate)

Yes, that seems a reasonable balance. Pay on exit is definitely much preferable to pay on entry given that many people won't know how long they need to stay for.

Personally I'd prefer the remittances for people who cannot afford the fees to also be conditional on the person being able to show that the car was the only reasonable means by which they could get to the hospital (either they have a condition that makes public transport impractical or there is no convenient public transport to/from their house or work), but I'd imagine that making that determination in a way that's fair and doesn't incur large admin costs would be almost impossible, so your simpler solution is probably better in practice.
 

OneOffDave

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I don't think that analysis quite holds, as it's confusing different types of risk.
But of course when a company goes bust, the customers may also lose money and suddenly have to find someone else to take over their service. And that's the (entirely separate) risk you as the customer take when you contract out something. To some extent that risk is there anyway: Even if the Government or any public body does something in-house, it takes the risk that its financial calculations will go wrong, whatever it's doing will cost more than it expected, and it'll suddenly be faced with an unexpected bill to bail out the project. The only difference is, if you've contracted out, sorting out this situation becomes more complicated and expensive.

If all your ambulances are owned by Ambco and it goes into receivership your community is stuffed as there's nowhere you can get 450 odd ambulances (size of LAS's fleet) in a sufficient timescale to stop unnecessary deaths. You can't use the Ambco ones as they have either gone back to the leasing company (and it'll take time to negotiate and fund the new lease) or have been taken to be sold to pay Ambco's creditors. Services that can never collapse without causing deaths are poor candidates for privitisation unless you count the cost of any potential deaths as part of the economic model for privitisation. This societal impact is on top of any direct fiscal impacts of a project failing. If an ambulance service trust 'goes broke', the government aren't going to tell it to shut up shop and stop delivering services to the 8 million people it serves. They'll fire all the senior management and draft other managers in from across the country. They might even change the name but it will still function. You can't do that with private companies.
 

underbank

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If all your ambulances are owned by Ambco and it goes into receivership your community is stuffed as there's nowhere you can get 450 odd ambulances (size of LAS's fleet) in a sufficient timescale to stop unnecessary deaths. You can't use the Ambco ones as they have either gone back to the leasing company (and it'll take time to negotiate and fund the new lease) or have been taken to be sold to pay Ambco's creditors.

If the franchise/contracts were negotiated properly, there'd be a clause dealing with that eventuality, i.e. "if Ambco goes bankrupt, the NHS has the right to take over the leases of the vehicles". Just like with the East Coast railway franchise where the Govt/Network Rail or whoever stepped in to carry on leasing the rolling stock previously leased to Stagecoach etc. It's a very comparable scenario. Just as the owners of the East Coast trains don't want them sat idle in sidings, nor would the lease companies owning 450 old ambulances want them sat in a car park. All the potential negative possibilities can be dealt with in the franchise/contract agreements from the outset.
 

OneOffDave

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If the franchise/contracts were negotiated properly, there'd be a clause dealing with that eventuality, i.e. "if Ambco goes bankrupt, the NHS has the right to take over the leases of the vehicles". Just like with the East Coast railway franchise where the Govt/Network Rail or whoever stepped in to carry on leasing the rolling stock previously leased to Stagecoach etc. It's a very comparable scenario. Just as the owners of the East Coast trains don't want them sat idle in sidings, nor would the lease companies owning 450 old ambulances want them sat in a car park. All the potential negative possibilities can be dealt with in the franchise/contract agreements from the outset.

The problem occurs when the company delivering the service starts with it's own fleet and over time transfers to a leased vehicle fleet. You can't contract for conditions that don't exist. You are unlikely to get a contract that says if you go into receivership, all of your assets will belong to us. The train company example differs as they handed back the franchise rather than were insolvent.
 

underbank

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The problem occurs when the company delivering the service starts with it's own fleet and over time transfers to a leased vehicle fleet. You can't contract for conditions that don't exist. You are unlikely to get a contract that says if you go into receivership, all of your assets will belong to us. The train company example differs as they handed back the franchise rather than were insolvent.

But it's common in property leases that if the lessee goes bankrupt, the property and associated obligations etc reverts to the leasor. It's also common with car leases granted to limited companies. Basically upon receivership, the lease is deemed terminated. So, yes, you can contract for conditions that don't exist - it's pretty normal to provide for things which may happen.
 

WelshBluebird

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Free parking just wouldn't work anywhere in London as people would use hospitals as a convenient car park for the station or the shops.

So then make it so that if you have an appointment, or have a valid reason for visiting (e.g family) you get free parking. Hell if you make it a pay on exist system that is easy (just give a free "pass" to those leaving who had valid business being there). Of course that won't happen because it is currently a revenue stream!
 

Barn

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So then make it so that if you have an appointment, or have a valid reason for visiting (e.g family) you get free parking. Hell if you make it a pay on exist system that is easy (just give a free "pass" to those leaving who had valid business being there). Of course that won't happen because it is currently a revenue stream!

That would just add another job to the receptionists / nurses in each ward and take them away from their core duties. I do however think that there should be a form of free / heavily discounted 'season ticket' to people who need to make repeat visits to hospitals or have a close relative who is a long-term inpatient.
 

OneOffDave

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But it's common in property leases that if the lessee goes bankrupt, the property and associated obligations etc reverts to the leasor. It's also common with car leases granted to limited companies. Basically upon receivership, the lease is deemed terminated. So, yes, you can contract for conditions that don't exist - it's pretty normal to provide for things which may happen.
That's just reversion to the situation as things were before which doesn't require specific planning. It's not agreeing to a contract with a third party at an unknown time for an unknown duration within another contract
 

DynamicSpirit

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That would just add another job to the receptionists / nurses in each ward and take them away from their core duties. I do however think that there should be a form of free / heavily discounted 'season ticket' to people who need to make repeat visits to hospitals or have a close relative who is a long-term inpatient.

Granted that there may be people who need financial help in getting to hospital, but why would you specifically help people who choose to drive, when people who go by train or bus get no help?
 

underbank

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Granted that there may be people who need financial help in getting to hospital, but why would you specifically help people who choose to drive, when people who go by train or bus get no help?

If they're OAPS, they'll get a free bus pass and discounted rail card, and most patients will be OAPS, so they are getting "help", whereas there are no comparable discounts for fuel, parking, etc.
 

ralphchadkirk

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If all your ambulances are owned by Ambco and it goes into receivership your community is stuffed as there's nowhere you can get 450 odd ambulances (size of LAS's fleet)
Way bigger than that in fleet size. Ambulances are only one part - you need many, many different vehicles to deliver an effective service.
 

OneOffDave

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Way bigger than that in fleet size. Ambulances are only one part - you need many, many different vehicles to deliver an effective service.

Yeah I know that I was just using front line vehicles for an example. I work in health emergency preparedness
 
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