Merseyrail and Giants event

Bletchleyite · 25 Sep 2018

That's a good start. Now what about reining in the rest of this flagrant breach of the franchise agreement too? I've long thought of the present Merseyrail organisation as shockingly arrogant, but this latest scheme is beyond even their usual.

I just cannot see any justification for why replacement buses cannot be drafted in for the closed stations on the outer reaches of the network. If necessary, draft them in from out of the area.

I'm also amused that they are serving both Maghull and Maghull North. How about dropping Maghull North and serving Town Green instead?

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stuart100100 · 25 Sep 2018

Bletchleyite said:
That's a good start. Now what about reining in the rest of this flagrant breach of the franchise agreement too? I've long thought of the present Merseyrail organisation as shockingly arrogant, but this latest scheme is beyond even their usual.

I just cannot see any justification for why replacement buses cannot be drafted in for the closed stations on the outer reaches of the network. If necessary, draft them in from out of the area.

I'm also amused that they are serving both Maghull and Maghull North. How about dropping Maghull North and serving Town Green instead?

Bigger car park at Maghull North so might be thinking of people further away parking up than locals in Town Green

Ryans · 25 Sep 2018

There seems to be bus replacement this Sunday between Formby & Southport according to both the national rail website and virgin trains app when I try to buy a ticket from Seaforth & Litherland to Southport. However the national rail website future engineering works section says no works are planned on merseyrail on sunday and there is no mention on the merseyrail website of bus replacement, any ideas?

stuart100100 · 25 Sep 2018

Ryans said:
There seems to be bus replacement this Sunday between Formby & Southport according to both the national rail website and virgin trains app when I try to buy a ticket from Seaforth & Litherland to Southport. However the national rail website future engineering works section says no works are planned on merseyrail on sunday and there is no mention on the merseyrail website of bus replacement, any ideas?

It's listed on merseyrail's website

https://www.merseyrail.org/plan-your-journey/engineering-works.aspx

nedchester · 25 Sep 2018

Bletchleyite said:
That's a good start. Now what about reining in the rest of this flagrant breach of the franchise agreement too? I've long thought of the present Merseyrail organisation as shockingly arrogant, but this latest scheme is beyond even their usual.

I just cannot see any justification for why replacement buses cannot be drafted in for the closed stations on the outer reaches of the network. If necessary, draft them in from out of the area.

I'm also amused that they are serving both Maghull and Maghull North. How about dropping Maghull North and serving Town Green instead?

They are moving in the right direction but still nothing from Capenhurst (my local station) and other stations on the network. Rail Replacement buses should be offered or taxis for ticket holders.

They are still breaching their franchise agreement.

Bletchleyite · 25 Sep 2018

nedchester said:
They are moving in the right direction but still nothing from Capenhurst (my local station) and other stations on the network. Rail Replacement buses should be offered or taxis for ticket holders.

Has anyone noticed that the Ellesmere Port RRBs aren't serving Little Sutton or Overpool? There can be no sensible excuse for this.

They really are royally taking the mick and need a very hard slap.

Clip · 25 Sep 2018

nedchester said:
They are still breaching their franchise agreement.

What does the franchise agreement say about closures for special events if anything?

nedchester · 25 Sep 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Has anyone noticed that the Ellesmere Port RRBs aren't serving Little Sutton or Overpool? There can be no sensible excuse for this.

They really are royally taking the mick and need a very hard slap.

Easy option to just run down the M53 and back for them but then the buses sit at Hooton and Ellesmere Port for 15 mins. They could easily call at Little Sutton and Overpool. Not acceptable.

I fully admit to telling them via Twitter they are breaching their franchise!

urbophile · 25 Sep 2018

peter166 said:
I am not aware of any buses that run from outside Moorfields station to Queens Square, which anyway is not adjacent to Lime Street Station which is a good 5 mins walk away

Several buses (12, 13, 18 etc) call at Lime Street and Queen Square then stop near Moorfields in Dale Street, in that direction. However the one-way system means that going the other way involves a near five minute walk in which time you would be half way to Lime Street. Not good.

Kite159 · 25 Sep 2018

All the tourists coming into the city to see a large giant being moved around (if I read that website correctly), causing untold misery for regular travellers of Merseyrail in the process.

Run Hooton - Ellesmere Port services as a one unit shuttle and only close stations which are close together and have lots of alternative options for buses. You could probably get away with running a 2 unit shuttle between New Brighton & Birkenhead North to free up some units (which can be doubled up for West Kirby)

Darandio · 25 Sep 2018

nedchester said:
I fully admit to telling them via Twitter they are breaching their franchise!

But did they reply? Or if they did, was it that generic 'make a complaint via here' message that they have been trotting out for days? :lol:

nedchester · 25 Sep 2018

Darandio said:
But did they reply? Or if they did, was it that generic 'make a complaint via here' message that they have been trotting out for days?

Having emailed Mr Heath (MD Merseyrail) direct I received this afternoon, a reply patting themselves on the back for reopening Bache whilst ignoring the fact that I wished to use Capenhurst!

I have now fired an email back to them with the Franchise Agreement attached explaining why they should be providing services to all of the closed stations and escalating the complaint to the ORR, Transport Focus and the RDG..........

Ianigsy · 25 Sep 2018

Kite159 said:
You could probably get away with running a 2 unit shuttle between New Brighton & Birkenhead North to free up some units (which can be doubled up for West Kirby)

Not on the Friday - one of the giants is starting off at New Brighton and looks to be heading to Seacombe Ferry, which might be quite a shrewd idea in that it should keep most Wirral folk on that side of the water for the day.

There does seem to be an expectation that normal life on Merseyside will be suspended for the weekend, though- no interchange between the three lines and Hunts Cross also left without service on a Northern strike day. Living in Yorkshire and with family in Birkenhead, I'd be tempted to go cross for the weekend but it's a disincentive not knowing what time I'll be able to get home on the Sunday evening.

M28361M · 25 Sep 2018

nedchester said:
I have now fired an email back to them with the Franchise Agreement attached explaining why they should be providing services to all of the closed stations and escalating the complaint to the ORR, Transport Focus and the RDG..........

I'm not sure that Merseytravel won't have agreed to this shoddy plan, and if they have then they will turn a blind eye to any breach. I have emailed them to ask the question.

For anyone else interested, I believe this document is the Merseyrail concession agreement but it's from 2016 and I have no idea if it has been changed since then (there have been several variations agreed since it was signed in 2003) https://johnbrace.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/ConcessionAgreement.pdf

nedchester · 25 Sep 2018

M28361M said:
I'm not sure that Merseytravel won't have agreed to this shoddy plan, and if they have then they will turn a blind eye to any breach. I have emailed them to ask the question.

For anyone else interested, I believe this document is the Merseyrail concession agreement but it's from 2016 and I have no idea if it has been changed since then (there have been several variations agreed since it was signed in 2003) https://johnbrace.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/ConcessionAgreement.pdf

I have received an email from the MD himself this evening and he says that the whole thing has been agreed with Merseytravel. But however, I’d be interested to see what reply you get from Merseytravel (I’ve email them as well but got nothing back yet)

Bletchleyite · 25 Sep 2018

nedchester said:
I have received an email from the MD himself this evening and he says that the whole thing has been agreed with Merseytravel. But however, I’d be interested to see what reply you get from Merseytravel (I’ve email them as well but got nothing back yet)

Is that why they've got away with lopping several of the Lancashire and Cheshire stations - Merseytravel won't object as Lancashire don't pay their taxes to them? That is one issue with a local concession.

If Merseytravel agreed it, they are not fit for purpose as an organisation and there need to be serious political ructions. And Merseyrail should be expelled from ATOC/RDG and from all relevant National Rail structures including ticketing and timetabling as well as a full withdrawal of national Government operating subsidy, as they are clearly unwilling to uphold the spirit of being part of a larger whole, evidenced by not just this action but many others too. If they won't consider their importance as part of a wider system, they don't deserve the commission and central subsidy they are getting. If they want to play at being Metrolink (not that I'm convinced TfGM would do anything quite so stupid), let them enjoy it in full.

nedchester · 25 Sep 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Is that why they've got away with lopping several of the Lancashire and Cheshire stations - Merseytravel won't object as Lancashire don't pay their taxes to them? That is one issue with a local concession.

If Merseytravel agreed it, they are not fit for purpose as an organisation and there need to be serious political ructions. And Merseyrail should be expelled from ATOC/RDG and from all relevant National Rail structures including ticketing and timetabling as well as a full withdrawal of national Government operating subsidy, as they are clearly unwilling to uphold the spirit of being part of a larger whole, evidenced by not just this action but many others too. If they won't consider their importance as part of a wider system, they don't deserve the commission and central subsidy they are getting. If they want to play at being Metrolink (not that I'm convinced TfGM would do anything quite so stupid), let them enjoy it in full.

Well I have contacted the RDG but not sure how quick they take to reply.

But yes the point is that those not going to this event can whistle as far as ME are concerned. They have given no reason, yet, as to why RRB are not being provided.

silverfoxcc · 26 Sep 2018

A big puppet, FFS no doubt another waste of tax payers money in the name of art ( the F is missing)

142Pilot · 26 Sep 2018

silverfoxcc said:
A big puppet, FFS no doubt another waste of tax payers money in the name of art ( the F is missing)

You couldn't be more wrong.

It brings in millions in tourist revenue and cultural value.

My kids loved the story telling element of it last time. It was brilliant.

urbophile · 26 Sep 2018

142Pilot said:
You couldn't be more wrong.

It brings in millions in tourist revenue and cultural value.

My kids loved the story telling element of it last time. It was brilliant.

It won't bring it quite as many millions if the tourists can't get there! Having said that, I agree. It is in no way just a bit of fairground trivia: it is a spectacular event which if it happened every year (would that it did) would be renowned worldwide.

Bletchleyite · 26 Sep 2018

David Emmott said:
It won't bring it quite as many millions if the tourists can't get there! Having said that, I agree. It is in no way just a bit of fairground trivia: it is a spectacular event which if it happened every year (would that it did) would be renowned worldwide.

I'm sure it is, but why it should prevent someone travelling from Town Green to Preston, or from Capenhurst to North Wales, is anybody's guess.

nedchester · 26 Sep 2018

Bletchleyite said:
I'm sure it is, but why it should prevent someone travelling from Town Green to Preston, or from Capenhurst to North Wales, is anybody's guess.

Exactly. They have not given a reason WHY they are not running rail replacement buses nor why they are not reimbursing people for using alternative transport.

Their Twitter feed is full of people complaining but all they get is “sorry for any inconvenience”.

When I emailed Andy Heath he didn’t seem to like the fact that I pointed out their recent awards of Operator of the Year and Customer Service excellence was rather inappropriate!

Class83 · 26 Sep 2018

What utter ~~genius~~/halfwit came up with this plan? Preventing your regular commuters from getting to work on the Friday, then preventing them from taking their kids to see the giants over the weekend? I understand the logic of having queuing systems at Central and Moorfields along with closing James Street to manage crowds. But the suburban closures, particularly on the Friday are bizzare.

Yes trains are going to be busy, but this is just asking people to drive and cause utter chaos.

urbophile · 26 Sep 2018

Bletchleyite said:
I'm sure it is, but why it should prevent someone travelling from Town Green to Preston, or from Capenhurst to North Wales, is anybody's guess.

Quite. Even more perverse, to deter people from using public transport to visit the city (or the Wirral, as part of the event takes place over the water) is going to cause congestion, anger and frustration. Why is this Giants event so different from previous ones? I don't recall such drastic curtailment of the normal train service before.

jamesst · 27 Sep 2018

Blimey, when it's announced there's no boxing day trains this year people on here will be demanding blood

Bletchleyite · 27 Sep 2018

jamesst said:
Blimey, when it's announced there's no boxing day trains this year people on here will be demanding blood

That's a surprise and a shame (I'm guessing it is due to a lack of staff goodwill to operate due to the disputes?), but it's rather different not operating on a day when they traditionally did not operate and when much fewer people have important commitments to get to than on a standard weekday and weekend.

Bookd · 27 Sep 2018

I must have missed something, but why is this a problem for trains?
I saw the giants in London some years ago and they are certainly spectacular - they would be expected to disrupt road traffic so most people would travel by train. If anything rail services should be enhanced rather than reduced.

nedchester · 27 Sep 2018

jamesst said:
Blimey, when it's announced there's no boxing day trains this year people on here will be demanding blood

But Boxing Day isn't a Franchise commitment......

notlob.divad · 27 Sep 2018

r

Bookd said:
I must have missed something, but why is this a problem for trains?
I saw the giants in London some years ago and they are certainly spectacular - they would be expected to disrupt road traffic so most people would travel by train. If anything rail services should be enhanced rather than reduced.

Arguably for some people the train service is being enhanced. It is clear that Merseyrail are trying to get as much 6 car working on their 'core' sections as they can. It looks like some of the smaller more remote stations have been dropped to allow longer dwell times at the busier stations.
Now yes, the people who as a result are left without a train all day can feel mighty peeved, but they are clearly trying to cater for the increase number of people, and protect their safety. I absolutely agree that dropping the smaller stations without any obvious advertised replacement is not on.

However when I have been to big events in London, it is a regular occurance for the underground stations to get shut due to safety concerns with no advanced warning. I remember having to hike from Green Park to Euston and Marble Arch to Waterloo (both 4 times the distance between any of the Central Merseyrail stations and further than both Chester to Bache and Aughton to Ormskirk) during similar sized events shutting the underground. Everyone just grumbled, accepted it and cracked on. Yet Merseytravel and Merseyrail release a plan saying exactly what is going to happen to keep everyone safe and people are up in arms about having to walk from Moorfields to Lime Street. Maybe they should have done nothing, run the trains as normal, and then when someone is pushed off the platform at Liverpool Central, they can defend themselves by sighting Joe Bloggs who had bought a through ticket from Formby to London and they didn't want to inconvenience him.

B&I · 27 Sep 2018

notlob.divad said:
r
Arguably for some people the train service is being enhanced. It is clear that Merseyrail are trying to get as much 6 car working on their 'core' sections as they can. It looks like some of the smaller more remote stations have been dropped to allow longer dwell times at the busier stations.
Now yes, the people who as a result are left without a train all day can feel mighty peeved, but they are clearly trying to cater for the increase number of people, and protect their safety. I absolutely agree that dropping the smaller stations without any obvious advertised replacement is not on.

However when I have been to big events in London, it is a regular occurance for the underground stations to get shut due to safety concerns with no advanced warning. I remember having to hike from Green Park to Euston and Marble Arch to Waterloo (both 4 times the distance between any of the Central Merseyrail stations and further than both Chester to Bache and Aughton to Ormskirk) during similar sized events shutting the underground. Everyone just grumbled, accepted it and cracked on. Yet Merseytravel and Merseyrail release a plan saying exactly what is going to happen to keep everyone safe and people are up in arms about having to walk from Moorfields to Lime Street. Maybe they should have done nothing, run the trains as normal, and then when someone is pushed off the platform at Liverpool Central, they can defend themselves by sighting Joe Bloggs who had bought a through ticket from Formby to London and they didn't want to inconvenience him.

There are no safety reasons for shutting suburban and rural stations miles from the events, without any RRBs. And why, if such drastic cuts are necessary with this giants event, were similsr restrictions not imposed whwn the giants last visited ? There is something more than meets the eye to this.

Merseyrail, and Merseytravel, really have become quite lacklustre organisations recently. Projects which haven't proved that difficult elsewhere (eg station refurbishments, new trains, building minor new stations) seem to take inordinate amounts of time, energy and money, while in other respects, such as frequency and coverage of bus services, things are getting steadily worse. They give the impression of organisations on tick-over, who struggle to cope if anything other.than a basic service is required

Merseyrail and Giants event

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