Cash Machines at Govia Thameslink Railway stations to charge a fee

Darandio · 28 Oct 2018

And i'm still none the wiser as to why people feel GTR need to find a solution. I'd rather they concentrated on sorting the much more important elements of their business.

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radamfi · 28 Oct 2018

Is there actually an issue with urban areas losing free cash machines anyway, given that we are talking about the GTR area here, not a rural area? I'm sure I saw a BBC news article not very long ago that many town centres are full of free cash machines, far more than what is required, because the independent cash machine operators get paid so much by the banks per use.

Teflon Lettuce · 28 Oct 2018

Puffing Devil said:
Remind me of the charges made by the railway for buying tickets using cash?

It's not. Some businesses are cash only, some are card only. Some take both. None that I know of charge a fee for taking cash.

No, it is not. That is your point of view and you seem to be in a minority of one on this thread, unless anyone else posts to support your position.

I get to the railway stn... I don't have any cash on me, and only have a cashcard account... I HAVE to travel {for whatever reason} I go to the only cash machine in the stn and it charges £1.85 for the transaction.... now... according to all the defenders of cash machine charges here the cash machine is either owned by the rail company or is supplied by a company that rents the space off of said rail company who then has to charge a fee to cover the costs of renting that space.... so yes... the rail company is charging a fee for paying by cash, albeit indirectly.

of course, it is becoming evident that you are wilfully misreading/ misquoting me and you know damn well exactly what my objection is to being charged a fee for accessing my own money.

Still, as I said in an above post... you're financially secure, you have the options to pay however you wish... so what if there are people poorer than you that don't enjoy the same options... why should you care.... you're sorted.

Maybe it might do you good to become bankrupt, have to live on benefits, have your credit severely restricted and then you might just see the obscenity of being charged £1.85 for withdrawing a tenner so you can get home on the train! {or pay for a loaf of bread, half a pound of cheese and a couple of pints of milk to see you through to your next benefit payment!}

Teflon Lettuce · 28 Oct 2018

Dai Corner said:
You only have to pay if you chose not to have a debit card and not to get your cash from a bank of your bank and not to get your cash from the Post Office and not to get cash from a free machine. Even then, you could minimise your charges by withdrawing cash as seldom as possible. Say once every payday, or less often if your cash flow allows.

not always a case of choosing... a bank does not have to offer you a debit/ credit card...and sometimes you need to get access to your money when the banks and post offices are closed.. and there isn't always the option of a free cash machine nearby.

Puffing Devil · 28 Oct 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
how is it fatuous? so the contract is complete when I complete the purchase... as is my contract with my bank when I decide to withdraw my money.... as it stands when I wish to end my contract with the bank I can be charged a flat rate of £1.85 to end that contract.... my supermarket analogy is quite apt.... it is the same as going through the checkouts and either at the point of paying or on leaving the store being charged a £1.85 "transaction surcharge" you wouldn't accept it so why should you or I accept the banks whinging that they don't make enough profit {really?} and charging a "transaction surcharge" for using a cash machine....

Your example remains fatuous. You will have a contract with your bank that governs your access to your cash. Have a look at it see what it says about access to cash machines outside of its network.

Teflon Lettuce said:
of course I am rapidly forming the opinion that all those defending the cash machine charges are those that are in a position whereby they don't have to pay them... unfortunately not everyone in society are that fortunate... but so what? sod them I'm all right!

I usually take money from a machine in my bank's network. I would support a new "Girobank" with universal and fee-free access.

radamfi · 28 Oct 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
Maybe it might do you good to become bankrupt, have to live on benefits, have your credit severely restricted and then you might just see the obscenity of being charged £1.85 for withdrawing a tenner so you can get home on the train! {or pay for a loaf of bread, half a pound of cheese and a couple of pints of milk to see you through to your next benefit payment!}

If you had to watch every penny and you had no choice but to use a fee charging cash machine, it would probably make sense to replace your card with a debit card.

radamfi · 28 Oct 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
not always a case of choosing... a bank does not have to offer you a debit/ credit card

Is there actually a bank that won't allow you to upgrade a cash only card to a debit card?

Dai Corner · 28 Oct 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
not always a case of choosing... a bank does not have to offer you a debit/ credit card...and sometimes you need to get access to your money when the banks and post offices are closed.. and there isn't always the option of a free cash machine nearby.

If I was in that position I'd withdraw all my money on payday and keep it under the mattress I think.

(As an aside, I once had a colleague didn't trust banks who did that. Probably £1000+ a month. Ironically, we worked in financial services - not for a bank though).

Teflon Lettuce · 28 Oct 2018

radamfi said:
If you had to watch every penny and you had no choice but to use a fee charging cash machine, it would probably make sense to replace your card with a debit card.

except of course, as I keep saying, a bank does not have to offer you a debit/ credit card! and of course missing the point that, if on a severely restricted income a debit card can cause even more financial problems

Puffing Devil · 28 Oct 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
I get to the railway stn... I don't have any cash on me, and only have a cashcard account... I HAVE to travel {for whatever reason} I go to the only cash machine in the stn and it charges £1.85 for the transaction.... now... according to all the defenders of cash machine charges here the cash machine is either owned by the rail company or is supplied by a company that rents the space off of said rail company who then has to charge a fee to cover the costs of renting that space.... so yes... the rail company is charging a fee for paying by cash, albeit indirectly.

You're now holding the railway to task because of your failure to plan? It's your own responsibility to plan to have the cash you need to pay for your ticket. You could carry a debit card as a back-up

Teflon Lettuce said:
of course, it is becoming evident that you are wilfully misreading/ misquoting me and you know damn well exactly what my objection is to being charged a fee for accessing my own money.

That is a matter for you to take up with your bank. You have a choice of who you bank with and the charges that they make

Teflon Lettuce said:
Still, as I said in an above post... you're financially secure, you have the options to pay however you wish... so what if there are people poorer than you that don't enjoy the same options... why should you care.... you're sorted.

I do care. See my post above.

Teflon Lettuce said:
Maybe it might do you good to become bankrupt, have to live on benefits, have your credit severely restricted and then you might just see the obscenity of being charged £1.85 for withdrawing a tenner so you can get home on the train! {or pay for a loaf of bread, half a pound of cheese and a couple of pints of milk to see you through to your next benefit payment!}

That escalated rather quickly? Are you always so venomous when taken to task?

I agree, the charge is unpleasant, though largely avoidable like buying the load of bread and pints of milk at a supermarket rather than running out and going to the corner shop. It's the price of a distress/convenience purchase.

Puffing Devil · 28 Oct 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
except of course, as I keep saying, a bank does not have to offer you a debit/ credit card!

Just as you do not need to do business with a bank that will not give you a card.

radamfi · 28 Oct 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
except of course, as I keep saying, a bank does not have to offer you a debit/ credit card! and of course missing the point that, if on a severely restricted income a debit card can cause even more financial problems

When was the last time you tried to get a debit card?

Teflon Lettuce · 28 Oct 2018

Puffing Devil said:
You're now holding the railway to task because of your failure to plan? It's your own responsibility to plan to have the cash you need to pay for your ticket. You could carry a debit card as a back-up

That is a matter for you to take up with your bank. You have a choice of who you bank with and the charges that they make

I do care. See my post above.

That escalated rather quickly? Are you always so venomous when taken to task?

I agree, the charge is unpleasant, though largely avoidable like buying the load of bread and pints of milk at a supermarket rather than running out and going to the corner shop. It's the price of a distress/convenience purchase.

ok.. I'll try this one last time... imagine for whatever reason you have been made bankrupt and you are now living on benefits {currently £73.15 pw for a single person over 25} the banks are hardly going to be falling over themselves to give you credit facilities are they? in fact they will be reticent to offer you ANY facilities... and will only provide you with the barest minimum required by law. At the end of the day they only have to provide a cash card account. When I ended up in that position a few yrs ago my own bank refused point blank to offer me ANY sort of account- after all I already owed them shedloads of money. I then had to shop around for a new account and only one bank would offer me banking facilities and then that was on the grounds that I only had a cash card... no debit/ credit card, no credit facility, no overdraft... nothing but the abssolute minimum to be able to access money. Plan ahead? so anyone too poor to be able to afford good credit facilities should always keep money to one side in case they have to make a sudden journey at stupid o'clock at night should they? of course that being money that they don't have spare to keep to one side because they are so poor they are living hand to mouth already?

Teflon Lettuce · 28 Oct 2018

radamfi said:
When was the last time you tried to get a debit card?

who said I didn't?

fact is, unlike all the people here berating me for not paying for services the way the banks want me to pay I understand that there are people in society for whom those options just do not exist... and I was brought up in more enlightened times where it wasn't acceptable to penalise people for being poor or in a bad situation

radamfi · 28 Oct 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
ok.. I'll try this one last time... imagine for whatever reason you have been made bankrupt and you are now living on benefits {currently £73.15 pw for a single person over 25} the banks are hardly going to be falling over themselves to give you credit facilities are they? in fact they will be reticent to offer you ANY facilities... and will only provide you with the barest minimum required by law. At the end of the day they only have to provide a cash card account. When I ended up in that position a few yrs ago my own bank refused point blank to offer me ANY sort of account- after all I already owed them shedloads of money.

According to this, as long as you have got ID and haven't got a history of fraud, it should be easy enough to get at least one of the three basic bank accounts mentioned here:

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/banking/basic-bank-accounts/

Worst case scenario would be the Monese card which costs £4.95 a year and is available to anyone over 18 in the EEA with ID. There is a charge for ATM withdrawals but you can use your existing cash card for that.

Another option is Monese, another prepaid card that acts like a bank account. Anyone over 18 living in the EEA can open an account by filling in their details and submitting a photo of their ID and a video 'selfie' - you don't have to have a UK address.

Monese offers similar features to the U Account above, though doesn't yet support standing orders. There are two account options - Starter has no monthly fee but charges £4.95 for a debit card and £1 for each ATM withdrawal. The Plus option has a flat monthly fee of £4.95, which includes 6 cash withdrawals a month - any more are charged at £1 a pop.

Darandio · 28 Oct 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
and will only provide you with the barest minimum required by law. At the end of the day they only have to provide a cash card account.

Source? As far as I was aware you can still be refused an account, i've never seen any law that entitles you to it and most certainly that they must provide a certain one as a bare minimum.

Teflon Lettuce · 28 Oct 2018

radamfi said:
There is a charge for ATM withdrawals but you can use your existing cash card for that.

except of course that the whole point of this thread is about GTR charging for ATM withdrawals in their stations! and of course if you are on such low income £4.95 in monthly fees is still extortionate... it works out at more than 1% of the income of a single person on benefit... have you seen the news on the effects of the benefits cuts? how more people than ever are reduced to charity from food banks? how are they supposed to be able to give up over 1% of their income in fees?

radamfi · 28 Oct 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
except of course that the whole point of this thread is about GTR charging for ATM withdrawals in their stations! and of course if you are on such low income £4.95 in monthly fees is still extortionate... it works out at more than 1% of the income of a single person on benefit... have you seen the news on the effects of the benefits cuts? how more people than ever are reduced to charity from food banks? how are they supposed to be able to give up over 1% of their income in fees?

You won't need to pay ATM charges very often if you have a debit card. The £4.95 is a one-off fee and chances are you will be able to get one of the other bank accounts mentioned anyway. That Monese is a last resort in case you can't get the other accounts, which are free. Why not try and get one of those accounts?

marcouk2 · 28 Oct 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
except of course that the whole point of this thread is about GTR charging for ATM withdrawals in their stations! and of course if you are on such low income £4.95 in monthly fees is still extortionate... it works out at more than 1% of the income of a single person on benefit... have you seen the news on the effects of the benefits cuts? how more people than ever are reduced to charity from food banks? how are they supposed to be able to give up over 1% of their income in fees?

Well for a start GTR aren't charging you for the use of the cash machine, that's the operator of the cash machine. Why can't this person use another atm that does offer free withdrawals?

Puffing Devil · 28 Oct 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
ok.. I'll try this one last time... imagine for whatever reason you have been made bankrupt and you are now living on benefits {currently £73.15 pw for a single person over 25} the banks are hardly going to be falling over themselves to give you credit facilities are they? in fact they will be reticent to offer you ANY facilities... and will only provide you with the barest minimum required by law. At the end of the day they only have to provide a cash card account. When I ended up in that position a few yrs ago my own bank refused point blank to offer me ANY sort of account- after all I already owed them shedloads of money. I then had to shop around for a new account and only one bank would offer me banking facilities and then that was on the grounds that I only had a cash card... no debit/ credit card, no credit facility, no overdraft... nothing but the abssolute minimum to be able to access money. Plan ahead? so anyone too poor to be able to afford good credit facilities should always keep money to one side in case they have to make a sudden journey at stupid o'clock at night should they? of course that being money that they don't have spare to keep to one side because they are so poor they are living hand to mouth already?

I'm going to have one final go, then I'm going to leave you alone, even though there is the same sort of satisfaction of picking at a scab.

The same argument that you applied to the railway could be applied to a supermarket: are they obliged to have a free ATM so you can draw cash to pay for your shopping because it's more convenient/you have forgotten to plan ahead/it's a social obligation?

You seem to have taken the whole ATM charging fees at a station to a minority scenario about a benefits claimant and access to their cash. I would contest that they are not the people most likely to be affected by this charge - an immediate cash withdrawal to fund a ticket is not likely to be a priority; they are by definition cash poor and time rich. That scenario does not have a real bearing on the provision of free facilities at a station.

I would also contest that the reason you found it so difficult to get a even a basic account was as you "owed them shedloads of money". Again, not a completely typical situation, more a consequence of your situation in which you found yourself. I'm not going to comment on that as I have no idea of the circumstances and don't believe it appropriate for this forum to discuss it in detail.

The bottom line is - if you want to pay by cash, you need to make arrangements. Get funds ahead of travel, be prepared. Or take a walk from the station and find a free machine. Don't expect the banks or railway to make concessions for your choices.

bramling · 28 Oct 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
except of course that the whole point of this thread is about GTR charging for ATM withdrawals in their stations! and of course if you are on such low income £4.95 in monthly fees is still extortionate... it works out at more than 1% of the income of a single person on benefit... have you seen the news on the effects of the benefits cuts? how more people than ever are reduced to charity from food banks? how are they supposed to be able to give up over 1% of their income in fees?

The answer to the last question is to find another machine. I don’t really agree with GTR’s position, however GTR is a crappy TOC so it’s just the latest negative in a long line of negatives from this operator.

AlterEgo · 28 Oct 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
my point is, and has always been, that you should be able to pay by whichever method you choose without penalty. Charging to withdraw money from cash machines does not fit this principle, and arguably penalises the least able to afford the fees as those without debit/ credit cards are most likely to be from the poorest sectors of society.

Also, much has been spouted here about how I can't expect the banks to look after my money for free... they don't... whilst my money is in their care they use that money to lend to others at a profit! what is the current interest rate on an instant access or current account at the moment? 0.5-1%? if that? and what is the current mortgage rate? 4-5%? and fixed rate loan? anywhere up to 18%. I think my bank has made enough profit from me allowing them to look after my money without them then charging me for the privilege of withdrawing some of it!

Keep all your money under your mattress then. Any reason why you don’t?

Teflon Lettuce · 28 Oct 2018

marcouk2 said:
Well for a start GTR aren't charging you for the use of the cash machine, that's the operator of the cash machine. Why can't this person use another atm that does offer free withdrawals?

GTR are indirectly charging you for the use of the cash machine... they choose to offer the site to a company that charges a fee for withdrawals and they also choose to charge sky high "rents" for what in effect is otherwise dead space... after all who, apart from a cashpoint provider, would be willing to rent a hole in the wall?

and why might you not be able to use an alternative facility? well, what about if the stn is remote from the commercial centre? or {as is very common} the stn is situated in one of the less salubrious parts of town and it's late at night? or maybe you've been called and told there's a family emergency... you get to the stn and find you don't have the full amount in cash on you and you really do need to catch the next train...

here's a thought... instead of all the defenders of fee-charging ATM's trying to gang up on me and just rubbishing my point of view why don't at least one of you try the different approach of actually defending your own viewpoint. Give ONE valid reason why it is morally ok to charge people to access their own money... especially when the people affected are most likely to be from the poorest and most vulnerable segments of our society...
I guess the reason why all the defenders of fee charging ATMs are attacking my viewpoint rather than explaining why their view is correct is because they know their viewpoint is immoral and indefensible

Teflon Lettuce · 28 Oct 2018

bramling said:
The answer to the last question is to find another machine. I don’t really agree with GTR’s position, however GTR is a crappy TOC so it’s just the latest negative in a long line of negatives from this operator.

The problem is it isn't a GTR thing is it? fee charging ATMs are becoming more and more widespread. It's been a very clever ruse by the banking sector... We've been told for yrs that we have to accept wholesale branch closures because the banks say they are "uneconomic" and we were all sold the sop of "there's plenty of ATMs where you can access your money"... now that we are in a position where for many there is no choice but to use a cash machine for day to day business the banks have, for the last couple of yrs, been making noises about how much the ATM network costs to run and how we now need to move to fee charging ATMs...

just a thought... what was the total profit of the main high street banking sector last year?... and what is the actual cost of running/ maintaining the ATM network... bet it's less than 1% of the profit margin!

Dai Corner · 28 Oct 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
here's a thought... instead of all the defenders of fee-charging ATM's trying to gang up on me and just rubbishing my point of view why don't at least one of you try the different approach of actually defending your own viewpoint. Give ONE valid reason why it is morally ok to charge people to access their own money... especially when the people affected are most likely to be from the poorest and most vulnerable segments of our society...
I guess the reason why all the defenders of fee charging ATMs are attacking my viewpoint rather than explaining why their view is correct is because they know their viewpoint is immoral and indefensible

If the ATM at the station which makes a charge was the only way the poorest and most vulnerable could get access to their money I'd agree with you. But it's not; there are ways to avoid the charge but they have to be reasonably well organised and/or put up with a bit of inconvenience. It's the convenience they're paying for, not the access.

radamfi · 28 Oct 2018

Puffing Devil said:
I would also contest that the reason you found it so difficult to get a even a basic account was as you "owed them shedloads of money". Again, not a completely typical situation, more a consequence of your situation in which you found yourself. I'm not going to comment on that as I have no idea of the circumstances and don't believe it appropriate for this forum to discuss it in detail.

But he's got a basic account so he can't be *that* bad, so it doesn't look like there's a reason why he would be refused a free basic account with debit card.

Puffing Devil · 28 Oct 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
here's a thought... instead of all the defenders of fee-charging ATM's trying to gang up on me and just rubbishing my point of view why don't at least one of you try the different approach of actually defending your own viewpoint. Give ONE valid reason why it is morally ok to charge people to access their own money... especially when the people affected are most likely to be from the poorest and most vulnerable segments of our society...
I guess the reason why all the defenders of fee charging ATMs are attacking my viewpoint rather than explaining why their view is correct is because they know their viewpoint is immoral and indefensible

It would not be defensible if there was no other way to access cash other than by paying for that access. That is not the case. Cash can be drawn at post offices and at one of the many fee free ATMs that exist - some at Paddington station. Have a look at https://www.link.co.uk/consumers/locator/ and tell me that you, or anyone else would not have an option to get fee free cash. You can use the post code W2 1HB to centre in on Paddington Station.

In summary, fee free options are available. No one is charging you to get your cash. Matter closed. Jog on.

radamfi · 28 Oct 2018

Dai Corner said:
If the ATM at the station which makes a charge was the only way the poorest and most vulnerable could get access to their money I'd agree with you. But it's not; there are ways to avoid the charge but they have to be reasonably well organised and/or put up with a bit of inconvenience. It's the convenience they're paying for, not the access.

I just found the article I hinted at earlier.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42360363

There's far from a shortage of free cash machines. The graph shows the number of free cash machines has grown from just over 30,000 to 55,000 between 2003 and 2017.

cjmillsnun · 28 Oct 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
how is it fatuous? so the contract is complete when I complete the purchase... as is my contract with my bank when I decide to withdraw my money.... as it stands when I wish to end my contract with the bank I can be charged a flat rate of £1.85 to end that contract.... my supermarket analogy is quite apt.... it is the same as going through the checkouts and either at the point of paying or on leaving the store being charged a £1.85 "transaction surcharge" you wouldn't accept it so why should you or I accept the banks whinging that they don't make enough profit {really?} and charging a "transaction surcharge" for using a cash machine....

of course I am rapidly forming the opinion that all those defending the cash machine charges are those that are in a position whereby they don't have to pay them... unfortunately not everyone in society are that fortunate... but so what? sod them I'm all right!

Your contract with the bank ends when you close your account. Not when you withdraw money.

cjmillsnun · 28 Oct 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
except of course, as I keep saying, a bank does not have to offer you a debit/ credit card! and of course missing the point that, if on a severely restricted income a debit card can cause even more financial problems

I have given the example of a debit card that has to authorise each transaction (meaning if you have insufficient funds - no deal), yet you persist in this rubbish

Cash Machines at Govia Thameslink Railway stations to charge a fee

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