Why are Wrightbus standards deteriorating?

To answer the original question, all 3 manufactures were good at their own thing but Wright decided to start copying Optare and beat them at their own game and it's backfired.

LOL The Irony said:

To answer the original question, all 3 manufactures were good at their own thing but Wright decided to start copying Optare and beat them at their own game and it's backfired.

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If Wright kept building the first generation Gemini and Eclipse to this day they'd no longer exist.

The reason the original Gemini was discontinued was nobody wanted them anymore when there were options that cost far less to run.

F Great Eastern said:

If Wright kept building the first generation Gemini and Eclipse to this day they'd no longer exist.

The reason the original Gemini was discontinued was nobody wanted them anymore when there were options that cost far less to run.

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The thing is that the Gemini Two kept the same shape as the later versions of the Gemini One, and the main visual difference is the headlights, although I'm guessing it was due to the 'if it's not broken, don't fix it' rule of thumb, however the Gemini Three is completely different, probably just cheaper.

VioletEclipse said:

The thing is that the Gemini Two kept the same shape as the later versions of the Gemini One, and the main visual difference is the headlights, although I'm guessing it was due to the 'if it's not broken, don't fix it' rule of thumb, however the Gemini Three is completely different, probably just cheaper.

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The Gemini 2 in reality was just a Gemini 1 with a new front bumper and a couple other minor differences, but structurally they were identical. The Gemini 3 on the other hand while being based on the same structure is significantly different.

It's strange as the current Eclipse 3 is literally the same as the original Eclipse/Solar range which was launched in 1999, they've just changed the skirt panels, end fibreglass masks and the interior area around the cab. One could perhaps make the assumption that Wright were just being lazy with the redesign or they didn't have the funds! It's pretty safe to say at this point that the Eclipse 3 has failed to make any real impact in the industry.

Jordan Adam said:

It's strange as the current Eclipse 3 is literally the same as the original Eclipse/Solar range which was launched in 1999, they've just changed the skirt panels, end fibreglass masks and the interior area around the cab. One could perhaps make the assumption that Wright were just being lazy with the redesign or they didn't have the funds! It's pretty safe to say at this point that the Eclipse 3 has failed to make any real impact in the industry.

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The fact that Wright are basically still making what is basically an almost 20 year old design shows that they are either unwilling or unable to change due to funds, although the Eclipse 3s that Lothian have with ECB have the new shape like the Gem 3.

VioletEclipse said:

The fact that Wright are basically still making what is basically an almost 20 year old design shows that they are either unwilling or unable to change due to funds, although the Eclipse 3s that Lothian have with ECB have the new shape like the Gem 3.

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Wright are not making the Eclipse 3 and haven't been actively marketing it, neither have Volvo. If you want one they will build you one at a premium, but their single deck product is the Streetlite.

VioletEclipse said:

The fact that Wright are basically still making what is basically an almost 20 year old design shows that they are either unwilling or unable to change due to funds, although the Eclipse 3s that Lothian have with ECB have the new shape like the Gem 3.

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They may have the new shape (front end fibreglass mould) but it's still pretty much a 19 year old body sadly. Buses (especially when it comes to interior design) have advanced quite a bit since the 90s, but the Eclipse 3 hasn't really. It would be like ADL selling a ALX300 with the MMC bumpers and a new dashboard, not really advancing forward is it?

F Great Eastern said:

Wright are not making the Gemini 3 and haven't been actively marketing it, neither have Volvo. If you want one they will build you one at a premium, but their single deck product is the Streetlite.

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I assume you're meaning the Eclipse 3 rather than the Gemini 3?

Jordan Adam said:

They may have the new shape (front end fibreglass mould) but it's still pretty much a 19 year old body sadly. Buses (especially when it comes to interior design) have advanced quite a bit since the 90s, but the Eclipse 3 hasn't really. It would be like ADL selling a ALX300 with the MMC bumpers and a new dashboard, not really advancing forward is it?

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But some would argue that the Enviro 400 wasn't a huge amount different from the ALX400, take the front and back off and from the side and a lot of the bus it's hard to tell the difference.

I assume you're meaning the Eclipse 3 rather than the Gemini 3?

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Yeah, typo, thanks!

F Great Eastern said:

But some would argue that the Enviro 400 wasn't a huge amount different from the ALX400, take the front and back off and from the side and a lot of the bus it's hard to tell the difference.



Yeah, typo, thanks!

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Perhaps, but when the Enviro400 was launched the ALX400 was only around 7 years old, where as when the "Stealth" Eclipse 3 was launched the original Eclipse was almost 18 years old!

Jordan Adam said:

The Gemini 2 in reality was just a Gemini 1 with a new front bumper and a couple other minor differences, but structurally they were identical. The Gemini 3 on the other hand while being based on the same structure is significantly different.

It's strange as the current Eclipse 3 is literally the same as the original Eclipse/Solar range which was launched in 1999, they've just changed the skirt panels, end fibreglass masks and the interior area around the cab. One could perhaps make the assumption that Wright were just being lazy with the redesign or they didn't have the funds! It's pretty safe to say at this point that the Eclipse 3 has failed to make any real impact in the industry.

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And the main reason the Eclipse 3 has failed to make any sizable impact is very much the benefits to the introduction of the Enviro 300/200MMC(Long Wheelbase) and streetlites, There lower weight = better Fuel Economy, less so for Decker vehicles.

F Great Eastern said:

Wright are not making the Eclipse 3 and haven't been actively marketing it, neither have Volvo. If you want one they will build you one at a premium, but their single deck product is the Streetlite.

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FYI if you think Volvo does not actively market its Euro6 B8RLE chassis for the use under the Wright Eclipse bodywork you’d be best to let them know its still on there website, whether this is an oversight on there part, is beyond me.
https://www.volvobuses.co.uk/en-gb/our-offering/buses/volvo-B8RLE.html
Any heavy duty chassis single decker will have a premium over the light weight competition, this being one of the many reasons ADL do not seek to commercialise there own heavy duty single deck, the 300 has more or less always filled this premise anyways.

Wrights most likely advertise there Streetlite/Streetdeck range as they make more money off those integral vehicles, whilst they can boast about there HEV-96 Mild Hybrid systems or Micro-Hybrid improvements, all of which help to increase the afformentioned fuel economy, arguably at the expense of reliability, I will say that the Streetdeck/Gemini bodywork is for all intent purposes almost the same Bodywork anyways, this being why the Gemini 3 is still commercialised openly by wrights, the B7TL/B9TLs were popular in the UK, it stands that wrights would continue offering the B5TL chassis, as said over and over the light weight singles have overtaken the once popular and heavy B7RLEs.

If anyone is willing to travel to Edinburgh and travel on Lothians, East Coast B8RLEs they certainly DON’T feel as solid as what the B7RLE Eclipse Urbans used to be, everything from the way they ride the bumps to the way they rattle and squeak, they certainly have changed something about them for euro6, and I do think the Eclipse Urbans/solars etc were great vehicles, to which I blame something different about Volvos suspension not particularly Wrights handy work as a whole in modern times, in the defence of Wright, blame Volvo if anything, the ADL 400 Classics used to use front suspension from Dana now use ZF suspension allround to which I do not think any improvements have been made doing so for the newer 400 MMC/CITYS.

However, the Dana suspension on the 200 MMC has been brought forward and improved upon from that fitted to the Enviro 300’s.
The Wrights Streetdeck uses ZF suspension where as the Gemini 3 on a B5TL chassis uses Volvos own units.

There is still an overshadowing issue with every bus builder/chassis maker at the moment, optare, wrights, ADL even Mercedes and its apparently premium 3-pointed citaro(McGills still rattle brilliantly), it may not technically be that things are made “cheaper” but that they are not built to the same engineering standards and durability as they once were, as the products become lighter in the search for improved fuel figures the weight loss comes down to taking a bolt out here and there, whilsts even the smallest of object around the bus can be made smaller, if components and bodywork are made smaller, thinner and subsequently lighter in weight it stands to reason that it will not stand the test of time...hence the good ole fashioned sturdy feeling from early Geminis.

F Great Eastern said:

If Wright kept building the first generation Gemini and Eclipse to this day they'd no longer exist.

The reason the original Gemini was discontinued was nobody wanted them anymore when there were options that cost far less to run.

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I was not saying anything along those lines. There is jack stopping them from making a few changes to their formerly sturdy body to make it lighter.

Gingerbus1991 said:

arguably at the expense of reliability

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And speed.

I think when it comes to rattles we all know that in reality a "rattle proof" bus is a non-existent concept. But i do think there's a limit to how much a new(ish) vehicle should rattle or squeak. For example a older Enviro400 (from the late 00s) and a Wright Streetlite new in 2014 rattle far more than our nearly 18 year old B10BLEs from what i've personally witnessed. Our E200MMCs which turn 3 years old this month don't rattle that badly and had next to no rattles when new, Streetlites on the other hand rattled the day they hit the road!

Thankfully as the Eclipse/Gemini 3 use a number of interior fittings that the originals used it's quite easy to notice the quality difference. To me it's pretty clear that Wright are now making the interior fittings such as the window pillar housing out of a much narrower poorer material. On the original Eclipses you could hit them with a hammer and they'd stay solid, where on the Eclipse/Gemini 3 they feel and sound like you could break the housing just by tapping on it!

As i've said a few times i was on a number of Lothians 18 plate Geminis when only a few weeks old and i was shocked by how poorly they had been built. I can't recall ever going on a bus that felt so cheaply put together and had so much rattles at such a young age.

Jordan Adam said:

I think when it comes to rattles we all know that in reality a "rattle proof" bus is a non-existent concept. But i do think there's a limit to how much a new(ish) vehicle should rattle or squeak. For example a older Enviro400 (from the late 00s) and a Wright Streetlite new in 2014 rattle far more than our nearly 18 year old B10BLEs from what i've personally witnessed. Our E200MMCs which turn 3 years old this month don't rattle that badly and had next to no rattles when new, Streetlites on the other hand rattled the day they hit the road!

Thankfully as the Eclipse/Gemini 3 use a number of interior fittings that the originals used it's quite easy to notice the quality difference. To me it's pretty clear that Wright are now making the interior fittings such as the window pillar housing out of a much narrower poorer material. On the original Eclipses you could hit them with a hammer and they'd stay solid, where on the Eclipse/Gemini 3 they feel and sound like you could break the housing just by tapping on it!

As i've said a few times i was on a number of Lothians 18 plate Geminis when only a few weeks old and i was shocked by how poorly they had been built. I can't recall ever going on a bus that felt so cheaply put together and had so much rattles at such a young age.

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Certainly, whilst these new lumps are here to stay I think many bus builders could up there game with Quality Control, whilst one batch of buses built 3 years ago can either be built better or worst than a batch 3 years newer seems to be a recurring theme amongst buses.

Gingerbus1991 said:

Certainly, whilst these new lumps are here to stay I think many bus builders could up there game with Quality Control, whilst one batch of buses built 3 years ago can either be built better or worst than a batch 3 years newer seems to be a recurring theme amongst buses.

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As i think i've said in this thread already (I'd need to check) from what i see ADL are the only ones who are improving in build quality just now, although flash back 10 years ago and they were by far the worst imo.

Intrigued by the comments suggesting that because a design hasn’t advanced enough in 20 years, that’s a bad thing. Do you think a 2018 Audi A4 looks radically different from a 1998 one?
Surely, the fact that a design doesn’t change significantly indicates that it’s actually pretty good?
Having said that, it doesn’t alter the fact that build quality is important, and I think that’s where Wright’s have really let themselves down over recent years, whilst ADL have improved.

Stan Drews said:

Intrigued by the comments suggesting that because a design hasn’t advanced enough in 20 years, that’s a bad thing. Do you think a 2018 Audi A4 looks radically different from a 1998 one?
Surely, the fact that a design doesn’t change significantly indicates that it’s actually pretty good?
Having said that, it doesn’t alter the fact that build quality is important, and I think that’s where Wright’s have really let themselves down over recent years, whilst ADL have improved.

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You're somewhat missing the point though, with the Eclipse 3 body the only evolution is them changing the front and rear fibreglass moulds (The rear one being from the Eclipse 2). In terms of the interior it's the same design as that from 1999 and looks pretty outdated when compared to other stuff on the market. I don't think comparing it to a car is all that fair as they're two different things.

Jordan Adam said:

You're somewhat missing the point though, with the Eclipse 3 body the only evolution is them changing the front and rear fibreglass moulds (The rear one being from the Eclipse 2). In terms of the interior it's the same design as that from 1999 and looks pretty outdated when compared to other stuff on the market. I don't think comparing it to a car is all that fair as they're two different things.

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Don’t think I’m the only one that has completely missed the point, but I’ll butt out and leave you to it.

Call me old fashioned but I don't think the Eclipse 3 looks nor feels outdated, from a drivers point of view the latest Ecliose offering is OK not so much with cab space, which is much better on ADL products, though I am led to believe Wrights are working on moving the rear wall of the cab in deckers backwards to create more space.

I would still rather drive any Eclipse 3 over any Streetlite or ADLs 200 line, especially when you consider an 12m Eclipse has got a shorter wheel base ergo a better turning circle than the 11.5/11.8m light weight alternatives.
The larger wheel of these as well increase the comfort of smaller wheeled competitors.

If indeed the design(frog-face) of the Eclipse/Gemini 3's offend people off and look at the Metrodecker or MCV EvoSeti, I for one like that Wrights have gawn in there own direction, it certainly helps them standout amongst the streamlined MMC stuff.

(not my photo)

I agree that the interior design on them looked good, but it's showing it's age, that's my point. Lets leave it at that.

Jordan Adam said:

I think when it comes to rattles we all know that in reality a "rattle proof" bus is a non-existent concept. But i do think there's a limit to how much a new(ish) vehicle should rattle or squeak. For example a older Enviro400 (from the late 00s) and a Wright Streetlite new in 2014 rattle far more than our nearly 18 year old B10BLEs from what i've personally witnessed. Our E200MMCs which turn 3 years old this month don't rattle that badly and had next to no rattles when new, Streetlites on the other hand rattled the day they hit the road!

Thankfully as the Eclipse/Gemini 3 use a number of interior fittings that the originals used it's quite easy to notice the quality difference. To me it's pretty clear that Wright are now making the interior fittings such as the window pillar housing out of a much narrower poorer material. On the original Eclipses you could hit them with a hammer and they'd stay solid, where on the Eclipse/Gemini 3 they feel and sound like you could break the housing just by tapping on it!

As i've said a few times i was on a number of Lothians 18 plate Geminis when only a few weeks old and i was shocked by how poorly they had been built. I can't recall ever going on a bus that felt so cheaply put together and had so much rattles at such a young age.

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The big thing about the Gemini 3 was the weight saving over the previous generation, I imagine that along with the lower roof and shallower windows, a lot of the fittings are more lightweight

I recall it was First which drove this "improvement"

Mikey C said:

The big thing about the Gemini 3 was the weight saving over the previous generation, I imagine that along with the lower roof and shallower windows, a lot of the fittings are more lightweight

I recall it was First which drove this "improvement"

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The artical here.
http://www.transportengineer.org.uk/article-images/49794/weight_watchers_on_tour.pdf