Greater Manchester's Last Fleetline - 20 Years On

Today marks the 20th anniversary since the last Leyland (Daimler) Fleetline ran in major operator service in Greater Manchester, when First Manchester 4988 (DWH 704W) of the ex LUT batch ran in service for the last time. I still miss them to this day. 4988 was the third newest of all Greater Manchester's Fleetlines and the third highest numbered example after renumbering from 6988 took place in 1991. The last, 6990 is preserved.

Tomorrow will mark 17 years for the last Atlantean, when 4763 (A763 NNA) came off service at Leigh bus station at eleven minutes past midday on the day in question. This was numerically Greater Manchester's third newest Atlantean.

Why were GM still buying Atlanteans when by then the Olympian had been in production for a couple of years?

johnw said:

Why were GM still buying Atlanteans when by then the Olympian had been in production for a couple of years?

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The Olympian was a new model and so they perhaps wanted to get the gremlins ironed out, but also, like a number of other PTEs, they realised that the Atlantean and Fleetline were being phased out and so took various models for evaluation. GMPTE took Metrobuses and Titans IIRC before the latter was withdrawn from sale. Think Merseyside took Dominators, Olympians, Ailsas and Metrobuses?

GMPTE also took Dominator and Ailsas around this time. Earlier in the 70s they had also taken some Metropolitan and a Foden!

Redmike said:

GMPTE also took Dominator and Ailsas around this time. Earlier in the 70s they had also taken some Metropolitan and a Foden!

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Some of the Metropolitans were Allocated to the Trans Lancs Express 400, however i believe they were quite thirsty & would often run out of fuel, & the journey was not replaced if one did run out of fuel.

Redmike said:

GMPTE also took Dominator and Ailsas around this time. Earlier in the 70s they had also taken some Metropolitan and a Foden!

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I couldn't remember if GMPTE that took Dominators or Ailsas - it's a long time ago Seem to recall they also took some Scanias and even Dennis Falcons as well so they certainly cast their net!

Was certainly an interesting period (1980-3) as the old established models began to be usurped by new machines (and foreign entrants)

Most PTEs took Metropolitans IIRC though I think the motivation may have been getting some buses at a time when 1970s Britain was beset by industrial relations issues

TheGrandWazoo said:

I couldn't remember if GMPTE that took Dominators or Ailsas - it's a long time ago Seem to recall they also took some Scanias and even Dennis Falcons as well so they certainly cast their net!

Was certainly an interesting period (1980-3) as the old established models began to be usurped by new machines (and foreign entrants)

Most PTEs took Metropolitans IIRC though I think the motivation may have been getting some buses at a time when 1970s Britain was beset by industrial relations issues

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I'm having a look through Rear-Engined Double-Deckers by Gavin Booth, and it has a table towards the end which lists various PTE/Municipal fleets and the various vehicles that they tried. GMPTE certainly comes out top. The types listed were Atlantean, Fleetline, VRT, Metropolitan, Foden, Titan, Dominator, Metrobus, Scania, Olympian, Falcon V, Ailsa, Citybus and Lion; GMPTE has a dot in every box except Lion, so it would appear that they were fairly open-minded!

You've mentioned the industrial relations as motivation to consider other models, but I recall reading elsewhere that when Fleetline production moved to Leyland from Coventry(?), the tooling was in fairly bad shape and that there was a fairly significant backlog. When chassis production did finally catch up, it was some of the body builders which then found themselves with a backlog.

GusB said:

I'm having a look through Rear-Engined Double-Deckers by Gavin Booth, and it has a table towards the end which lists various PTE/Municipal fleets and the various vehicles that they tried. GMPTE certainly comes out top. The types listed were Atlantean, Fleetline, VRT, Metropolitan, Foden, Titan, Dominator, Metrobus, Scania, Olympian, Falcon V, Ailsa, Citybus and Lion; GMPTE has a dot in every box except Lion, so it would appear that they were fairly open-minded!

You've mentioned the industrial relations as motivation to consider other models, but I recall reading elsewhere that when Fleetline production moved to Leyland from Coventry(?), the tooling was in fairly bad shape and that there was a fairly significant backlog. When chassis production did finally catch up, it was some of the body builders which then found themselves with a backlog.

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Hadn't heard that about Daimler but it does make sense. In the case of Cleveland Transit, I seem to recall that such was their concern about selecting the right vehicle to succeed the Fleetline (they took a pair of Dominators in 1980) that with the 1980 intake of Fleetlines, they took a number of chassis that weren't bodied for the next couple of years. Or is that some apocryphal story?

TheGrandWazoo said:

Hadn't heard that about Daimler but it does make sense. In the case of Cleveland Transit, I seem to recall that such was their concern about selecting the right vehicle to succeed the Fleetline (they took a pair of Dominators in 1980) that with the 1980 intake of Fleetlines, they took a number of chassis that weren't bodied for the next couple of years. Or is that some apocryphal story?

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That was certainly true for Derby who stored them in their depot.

GusB said:

You've mentioned the industrial relations as motivation to consider other models, but I recall reading elsewhere that when Fleetline production moved to Leyland from Coventry(?), the tooling was in fairly bad shape and that there was a fairly significant backlog. When chassis production did finally catch up, it was some of the body builders which then found themselves with a backlog.

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I suspect some of the issue was Leyland's wish that people would stop ordering the Fleetline completely. They'd already 'lost' one battle in that the Olympian had appeared (whereas they'd have preferred it if everybody had started ordering the Titan instead) so they wanted to stop at least one of the alternatives as soon as possible.

carlberry said:

I suspect some of the issue was Leyland's wish that people would stop ordering the Fleetline completely. They'd already 'lost' one battle in that the Olympian had appeared (whereas they'd have preferred it if everybody had started ordering the Titan instead) so they wanted to stop at least one of the alternatives as soon as possible.

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I'm fairly sure the Fleetline would have been dropped from the range much earlier if the Atlantean had a low-height variant (the PDR version did, but this was axed in favour of the fleetline), and the option of a Gardner engine - something they seemed very reluctant to offer, despite it being the favourite power plant for many operators.

As we're discussing GMPTE Fleetlines specifically, were these fitted with Gardners or 680s? I would thought it would have made sense to fit the latter considering their sizable Atlantean fleet. (I tried to access Bus Lists, but for some reason the site won't load).

All of the Fleetlines that SELNEC/GMT bought new had Gardner engines. Don't forget that Gardner's works was in their area. A little voice in my memory tells me that some of the ex-London DMSs may have had 680s but I'm not sure.

Most drivers would prefer an AN68 to a Fleetline, but most garage managers would prefer a Fleetline to an Atlantean.

Fleetlines and Atlanteans are still what I associate with Manchester, along with the little Centreline minibuses - I'm probably showing my age there! I can remember a load of 'deckers being renumbered from the 8xxx series to the 4xxx in (I'd guess) the late 80s/early 90s, was that to do with the split between GM Buses North and GM Buses South?

theblackwatch said:

Fleetlines and Atlanteans are still what I associate with Manchester, along with the little Centreline minibuses - I'm probably showing my age there! I can remember a load of 'deckers being renumbered from the 8xxx series to the 4xxx in (I'd guess) the late 80s/early 90s, was that to do with the split between GM Buses North and GM Buses South?

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If I can remember right, some of the Centreline buses were Optare Domino's which were truly rare and quite unusual buses compared to the amount of Flletlines and Atlanteans that used to go round Manchester.

Swanny200 said:

If I can remember right, some of the Centreline buses were Optare Domino's which were truly rare and quite unusual buses compared to the amount of Flletlines and Atlanteans that used to go round Manchester.

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Yes, the initial vehicles were little Seddon Pennine IV-236 machines (we have one preserved at our Museum) which were replaced in 1986 by the Dennis (not Optare) Dominos with Northern Counties bodies - built like tanks, massively over-engineered.

jp4712 said:

Yes, the initial vehicles were little Seddon Pennine IV-236 machines (we have one preserved at our Museum) which were replaced in 1986 by the Dennis (not Optare) Dominos with Northern Counties bodies - built like tanks, massively over-engineered.

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Yes, I stand corrected, the optare bodied ones were the Yorkshire batch, still the Domino was very rare. Reminds me very much of the Bedford JJL, buses that were in a sense ahead of their time, when the choices were breadvans.

I remember the Seddons from the early 80s - we used to catch one between Piccadilly and Victoria on our way home from Saturday spotting trips to Crewe, and my dad would get a copy of the pink paper for the football scores (nowadays, a paper with that name would be LGBT related!).
Happy days...

Trying to keep the thread on topic, it's great that Fleetlines, Atlanteans and a Seddon have been saved for preservation, and not just old half cabs.

jp4712 said:

All of the Fleetlines that SELNEC/GMT bought new had Gardner engines. Don't forget that Gardner's works was in their area. A little voice in my memory tells me that some of the ex-London DMSs may have had 680s but I'm not sure.

Most drivers would prefer an AN68 to a Fleetline, but most garage managers would prefer a Fleetline to an Atlantean.

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I don't know how much truth there is in this. I know a retired Bolton driver who preferred to drive Fleetlines and always got the router to give him one. This driver was not very keen on Olympians, but really liked Dennis Dominators. I also have a friend who drove for GM Buses at Rochdale, until the depot closed in 1991. He has nothing but praise for the Fleetline.
Fleetlines were certainly very popular at Halifax. Just after Deregulation, Halifax got some standard Roe bodied Atlanteans. They were not popular with the staff there and were replaced after a year with secondhand ex GM Fleetlines. Even towards the end of Fleetline operation at Halifax in 2000, drivers preferred Fleetlines to modern buses and often asked to be given them for evening workings.

The Gardner engined Fleetline is my favourite rear engined double decker of all time. I've never cared much for the Atlantean. I was only about six when I first rode on Fleetlines, when LUT first took delivery of the first GM standard ones, in full LUT red and grey livery in 1977; they looked magnificent. With it's neater bonnet design and quieter engine, I jumped to the natural conclusion that the Fleetline was a newer model than the Atlantean.

The only Leyland O.680 engined Fleetlines that Greater Manchester operated, were the twenty secondhand ex London DMSs that LUT bought in 1980.
It was to speed up withdrawal of the remaining Guy Arabs and speed up OPO introduction.

I believe that Leyland engines were quicker off the mark on level ground, but Gardners whilst slower, had better hill climbing ability and were renowned for fuel economy and longevity.

A driver would usually (I acknowledge, not always) prefer an Atlantean for two reasons: firstly later Atlanteans had power steering, whereas Fleetlines didn't; and Fleetlines have a fairly heavy throttle pedal, which can become very tiring. Believe me, I've driven both types! But as an engineer, you can't fault a Gardner. I own two buses including one with a Gardner 6LX and they are just so reliable it's unbelievable. When I bought my Gardner-engined bus it had faults with the electrics, faults with the body, faults all over the place: but the engine needed new filters and, er, nothing else.

theblackwatch said:

Fleetlines and Atlanteans are still what I associate with Manchester, along with the little Centreline minibuses - I'm probably showing my age there! I can remember a load of 'deckers being renumbered from the 8xxx series to the 4xxx in (I'd guess) the late 80s/early 90s, was that to do with the split between GM Buses North and GM Buses South?

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A new radio system was being delivered and it apparently couldn't cope with such a wide spread of fleet numbers.