West Midlands Plus Bus use on Midland Metro trams

extendedpaul · 26 Nov 2018

I've used this ticket several times over the years - it's very cheap and covers a wide area- but on a recent trip I was informed at Birmingham Moor Street station that it was no longer valid on tram services. I was offered instead a Day Tripper ticket costing £6.70. I declined this and purchased Plus Bus for £2.25 with railcard discount.

A tram conductor also confirmed Plus Bus was no longer accepted. I contacted West Midlands Metro customer services who replied very promptly that validity changed when West Midland Metro took over from National Express in July 2018. I responded that National Rail Enquiries and Plus Bus websites are all still stating that tram travel was included and asked for an assurance that apparently incorrect information would be updated. No reply and a month has now passed and it is still unchanged. See for example www.plusbusinfo/about-plusbus or www.plusbusinfo/birmingham.

What next step can I take to get the new validity shown - assuming that is that it really has changed but three separate people saying it has seems pretty conclusive ?

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ForTheLoveOf · 26 Nov 2018

extendedpaul said:
I've used this ticket several times over the years - it's very cheap and covers a wide area- but on a recent trip I was informed at Birmingham Moor Street station that it was no longer valid on tram services. I was offered instead a Day Tripper ticket costing £6.70. I declined this and purchased Plus Bus for £2.25 with railcard discount.

A tram conductor also confirmed Plus Bus was no longer accepted. I contacted West Midlands Metro customer services who replied very promptly that validity changed when West Midland Metro took over from National Express in July 2018. I responded that National Rail Enquiries and Plus Bus websites are all still stating that tram travel was included and asked for an assurance that apparently incorrect information would be updated. No reply and a month has now passed and it is still unchanged. See for example www.plusbusinfo/about-plusbus or www.plusbusinfo/birmingham.

What next step can I take to get the new validity shown - assuming that is that it really has changed but three separate people saying it has seems pretty conclusive ?

This is an extremely disappointing development. What justification or relevance does the operator behind the tram have?! We should be increasing the integration of our public transport networks, not decreasing it.

Until such time as the website is changed, anyone who buys the PlusBus ticket and is not informed of the lost acceptance must be accepted for travel on the tram. Of course no doubt it will eventually be fixed.

Paul Kelly · 26 Nov 2018

ForTheLoveOf said:
What justification or relevance does the operator behind the tram have?

I'm not sure if your question was rhetorical or not, but I'd suggest that a possible point of relevance could be that Plusbus is operated by a consortium of bus operators, one of whom is National Express.

ForTheLoveOf · 26 Nov 2018

Indigo2 said:
I'm not sure if your question was rhetorical or not, but I'd suggest that a possible point of relevance could be that Plusbus is operated by a consortium of bus operators, one of whom is National Express.

National Express West Midlands operate many, many buses in the West Midlands area.

PeterC · 26 Nov 2018

ForTheLoveOf said:
This is an extremely disappointing development. What justification or relevance does the operator behind the tram have?! We should be increasing the integration of our public transport networks, not decreasing it.

Until such time as the website is changed, anyone who buys the PlusBus ticket and is not informed of the lost acceptance must be accepted for travel on the tram. Of course no doubt it will eventually be fixed.

Are tram operators bound by what Plus Bus or National Rail choose to publish?

In another field I have had prospective customers insisting that we should honour incorrect prices published by a third party. The answer was that our own publicity was definitive and they should approach the publisher if they thought they were due a refund.

extendedpaul · 26 Nov 2018

If anyone can find a reference that plus bus tickets AREN'T valid on Midland Metro trams please post a link.

Here's most of the reply i received from West Midlands Metro customer service... " the plus bus add on isn't something we accept as a valid ticket on our network.We do accept a metro+ bus ticket and a metro, bus and train network ticket like the clerk mentioned. In the summer of this year we were taken over by West Midlands Metro Ltd after being previously owned by the bus and coach provider National Express who I assume would have accepted the PlusBus as a valid ticket which may be the reason for the misinformation on the website."

alex17595 · 26 Nov 2018

The Network West Midlands website also says plus bus gives you unlimited Bus + Tram travel in the West Midlands

ForTheLoveOf · 26 Nov 2018

PeterC said:
Are tram operators bound by what Plus Bus or National Rail choose to publish?

In another field I have had prospective customers insisting that we should honour incorrect prices published by a third party. The answer was that our own publicity was definitive and they should approach the publisher if they thought they were due a refund.

This is a question of 'apparent authority'. As long as you could reasonably believe that the person you are talking to was representing the company, they are bound by it.

Haywain · 26 Nov 2018

extendedpaul said:
What next step can I take to get the new validity shown - assuming that is that it really has changed but three separate people saying it has seems pretty conclusive ?

I would suggest contacting Journey Solutions who run PlusBus. Contact details here: http://www.journeysolutions.com/partners

Wolfie · 27 Nov 2018

alex17595 said:
The Network West Midlands website also says plus bus gives you unlimited Bus + Tram travel in the West Midlands

It does indeed. See Special Tickets at:
https://www.networkwestmidlands.com/tickets-and-passes/ticket-types/

I would suggest contacting them directly.

LNW-GW Joint · 27 Nov 2018

ForTheLoveOf said:
This is an extremely disappointing development. What justification or relevance does the operator behind the tram have?! We should be increasing the integration of our public transport networks, not decreasing it.

Plusbus isn't valid on Manchester Metrolink.
It is valid on the trams in Sheffield (including the Tram Train to Rotherham), Edinburgh and Nottingham.
However, in Edinburgh you can't reach the Airport on Plusbus, and in Nottingham you can't reach north of Moor Bridge (ie Hucknall).

DelW · 28 Nov 2018

West Midlands Metro's own website has a page describing the changes of ticket validity from 24th June (presumably the date of change of operator?).
https://westmidlandsmetro.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/FareChanges.pdf

It makes no mention of the withdrawal of Plusbus ticket validity. In fact it only covers three categories, new tickets, tickets with reduced fares, and tickets whose validity is unchanged.

So how are Plusbus buyers supposed to know that their tickets cannot be used on trams as stated by the Plusbus and Network West Midlands web sites?

Despite having lived in or near the city for nearly twenty years (a long time ago though), I find the current public transport and ticketing in Birmingham a confusing mish-mash of competing operators and unclear ticket validity. It was far simpler in the days of BCT and Midland Red.

Deerfold · 28 Nov 2018

The wife and I used Wolverhampton Plusbus to Bilston and back last month on the tram. My ticket was checked both ways by the conductor and accepted without question.

Haywain · 28 Nov 2018

DelW said:
the days of BCT and Midland Red.

Really? BCT was incorporated into the West Midlands PTE in 1969.

island · 28 Nov 2018

I don’t think what’s on the National Rail or PlusBus websites binds Midland Metro, or whatever it is called this month. They cannot be required to accept a PlusBus ticket.

If a passenger could prove that he/she relied on the representations on the said websites when buying a PlusBus ticket then his/her legal remedy would be compensation to the value of the Metro ticket purchased to make his/her planned journey. This would presumably not exceed the relevant Metro day ticket, usually £4.

Wolfie · 28 Nov 2018

island said:
I don’t think what’s on the National Rail or PlusBus websites binds Midland Metro, or whatever it is called this month. They cannot be required to accept a PlusBus ticket.

If a passenger could prove that he/she relied on the representations on the said websites when buying a PlusBus ticket then his/her legal remedy would be compensation to the value of the Metro ticket purchased to make his/her planned journey. This would presumably not exceed the relevant Metro day ticket, usually £4.

What is on Network West Midlands website though, given that they actually let the franchise....

Ianno87 · 28 Nov 2018

I used a PlusBus all the way from Grand Central to Wolves St Georges and back as recently as two weeks ago, inspected both times (admittedly by same conductor).

DelW · 29 Nov 2018

Haywain said:
Really? BCT was incorporated into the West Midlands PTE in 1969.

Indeed, I lived in Birmingham from 1952 until 1971, so I consider WMPTE to be a modern innovation

. In fact thinking back, I didn't really use buses after summer 1970.
In practice I think not very much changed until deregulation though, other than better integration of Midland Red routes.

CyrusWuff · 29 Nov 2018

island said:
I don’t think what’s on the National Rail or PlusBus websites binds Midland Metro, or whatever it is called this month. They cannot be required to accept a PlusBus ticket.

Digging through the archives, it appears that changes to PlusBus acceptance are only permitted at a Fares Change Date. An operator can't unilaterally decide to stop accepting them just because it feels like it.

What's less clear is whether the agreement would automatically have transferred across with the change of operator, however.

Regardless, it's the responsibility of the lead operator for a given scheme (which I'd assume would be National Express West Midlands in this case) to notify Journey Solutions of any changes, with a lead time of around four months(!)

SmethwickRS · 10 Dec 2018

I have been told by a senior member of the Transport for West Midlands team that there has been no change to the validity of PlusBus tickets on the West Midlands Metro - they remain valid for use.

Deafdoggie · 10 Dec 2018

My GUESS would be that the new operator said they wouldn’t accept it, and were either told they had to honour the agreement or they negotiated a better settlement.
This would explain the initial non-acceptance, but the now apparent acceptance. Might be worth getting back in touch to see what they say now.
In terms of what third party websites claim, I get this all day every day at work “your website say...” it doesn’t, you googled it and A website said. If a third party website is incorrect, you have to take it to the third party website. Many people have threatened all sorts of legal proceedings against us. However, none ever come to anything as we never made any such claim on our website.

Aictos · 14 Jan 2019

According to the Plusbus website, it IS accepted as the site states "A Birmingham PlusBus ticket gives you unlimited bus & tram travel around the West Midlands zone, including Birmingham city, as shown by the travel map (below). This includes bus travel to/from Aston University."

Even Plusbus themselves have tweeted this today stating:

PlusBus @PLUSBUS_UK
A Birmingham PlusBus ticket gives you unlimited bus & tram travel around the West Midlands zone, including Birmingham city. For more info visit bit.ly/2lfDDtF @chilternrailway @WestMidRailway @nationalrailenq

So I think it's a safe bet that it is accepted and if there are any occurrences in which people are told it's not accepted simply need extra training on what tickets are valid.

Deerfold · 14 Jan 2019

Class 403 said:
According to the Plusbus website, it IS accepted as the site states "A Birmingham PlusBus ticket gives you unlimited bus & tram travel around the West Midlands zone, including Birmingham city, as shown by the travel map (below). This includes bus travel to/from Aston University."

That was true when the OP posted, so proves no more than it did then.

I believe it is valid, but the question remains, what do you do if your Plusbus isn't accepted? And why is the OP being given information from various sources that it isn't valid.

ForTheLoveOf · 14 Jan 2019

Deerfold said:
That was true when the OP posted, so proves no more than it did then.

I believe it is valid, but the question remains, what do you do if your Plusbus isn't accepted? And why is the OP being given information from various sources that it isn't valid.

Well, pay up and then reclaim it!

Deerfold · 14 Jan 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
Well, pay up and then reclaim it!

That's hardly an ideal position. Who do you reclaim it from?

West Midlands Metro have told the OP it's not valid, so they're unlikely to refund it.
PlusBus say it is valid, so are unlikely to refund it either as they'll say West Midlands Metro shouldn't have charged you.

Aictos · 14 Jan 2019

Deerfold said:
That's hardly an ideal position. Who do you reclaim it from?

West Midlands Metro have told the OP it's not valid, so they're unlikely to refund it.
PlusBus say it is valid, so are unlikely to refund it either as they'll say West Midlands Metro shouldn't have charged you.

Claim it back from West Midlands Metro and if they refuse take them to the small claims court especially as it is valid.

Deerfold · 14 Jan 2019

Class 403 said:
Claim it back from West Midlands Metro and if they refuse take them to the small claims court especially as it is valid.

As I say, far from ideal.

I'd rather be able to travel without the thought I might have to go to the small claims court so as not to overpay.

Better to be able to get confirmation from them that the ticket is valid.

Qwerty133 · 14 Jan 2019

Class 403 said:
Claim it back from West Midlands Metro and if they refuse take them to the small claims court especially as it is valid.

Good luck unless you can find something on the metro website that states it is valid. West Midlands Metro are no more bound by the Plusbus website that they are by any advice posted on this forum or even a hypothetic website that stated all travel was free of charge.

ForTheLoveOf · 14 Jan 2019

You would claim against the retailer who sold you the ticket for misrepresentation.

boxy321 · 15 Jan 2019

An 'nnetwork' ticket covers the lot (all 3 forms), an 'nbus' ticket covers the buses only, a bus/metro ticket does what it says. The plusBus name is therefore open to interpretation and incorrect.

Other issues: There's a 'Friends & Family' ticket, where a season ticket holder can take a companion and 2 children on the train for £1/50p each. It states the travellers must stay together at all times so what about 1st class season ticket holders? The ambiguous description suggests the seasoner must downgrade and stand by the toilets in a vestibule with the rest. There are also no 1-day 1st class nnetwork tickets which is an issue for our Wolves/Brum pub crawls from Coventry. Given the price, no one in their right mind would travel standard between Cov and Wolves.

West Midlands Plus Bus use on Midland Metro trams

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