Level crossing incident Horsham 28/1/19

Muzz · 29 Jan 2019

The local Horsham paper is reporting that a train went through Parsonage Road level crossing with one of the barriers still in the upright position.

https://www.wscountytimes.co.uk/new...ous-fault-at-horsham-level-crossing-1-8787681

Concerned motorists called for help when the barriers across the rail line in Parsonage Road, Horsham, failed to operate correctly while the emergency red lights were flashing.

They reported the barrier going up and down twice, even though the red lights were flashing, leading to confusion for drivers who were unclear whether it was safe to cross. Giorgio Cavallo was on his way to his mother’s house when the barriers came down across the road just before 9am. “The level crossing gate arm went up whilst the red lights were still flashing. A white car at the front of the queue proceeded to make his way over the crossing ... I’m guessing he soon realised something was wrong. The barrier on the other side of the road was still down.

“The driver put his car in reverse and resumed his position in front of the barrier. Moments afterwards a train went past.

“The red signal lights continued to flash, but I’m guessing that the driver of the white car, being so close to the barrier, could not see it, so when the barrier went up, he naturally drove forward.

“In the duration that I was present, the barrier went up and down a couple of times but mainly stayed open.”

Cars at the head of the queue turned around and drove away, but Giorgio said: “I could not leave the scene as it was dangerous.”

He called rail officials on a roadside SOS phone and also alerted police, who said another driver had also reported it. “It was very unsafe,” said Giorgio, 48, who lives in Lower Beeding.

A spokesman for Sussex Police said: “Police closed Parsonage Road following reports of a fault at the level crossing about 9.04am.

“Network Rail engineers were called, and the issue was resolved and the road reopened as of 10.30am.”

Giorgio said he wished to highlight what had happened at Parsonage Road after reading of concerns raised by relatives at the inquest of a teenager and his grandad who died when their car was struck by a train at a similar crossing in Barns Green.

Network Rail has been asked to comment on the incident in Parsonage Road.

RailUK Forums

sw1ller · 29 Jan 2019

It bothers me that it led to “confusion for drivers” if the red lights were flashing. It’s a faulty barrier, the other one is down, use some common sense and stay off the tracks. It’s pretty simple.

Also, the incident at barns green was nothing to do with a fault.

Esker-pades · 29 Jan 2019

sw1ller said:
It bothers me that it led to “confusion for drivers” if the red lights were flashing. It’s a faulty barrier, the other one is down, use some common sense and stay off the tracks. It’s pretty simple.

Also, the incident at barns green was nothing to do with a fault.

I don't agree. Red lights flashing but some barriers are up? That is sending mixed messages. I would certainly be anxious enough to speak to the crossing operator.

sw1ller · 29 Jan 2019

That fact that you’d be anxious says to me you’re a sensible soul. Therefore, under no confusion to enter the crossing. Your actions would be spot on. To drive on to a crossing with one barrier down and red lights flashing is ludicrous. Self preservation needs to be a factor and people need to stop relying on equipment to keep them alive.

I think I just hate the world we live in today. People don’t take enough responsibility for their own actions.

Islineclear3_1 · 29 Jan 2019

Red lights mean STOP. If one barrier is down and the wig wags are operating, how is that "confusing?"

Thankfully, nobody was hurt and the fault was reported/sorted quickly

Deafdoggie · 29 Jan 2019

I think it is confusing, as in, it isn't normal. But that doesn't mean you just drive on as if nothing is wrong! I think what happens with confusion at traffic lights though (they to sometime go wrong) is that car drivers, in effect, proceed at caution through the junction, and that is what they do at faulty level crossings too. The railway really needs a fail-safe system so that trains can't proceed if the barriers are faulty. Clearly that did happen here, and the ideal must be, that with a fault, both cars and trains are halted.

The other point is, that these lights, unlike traffic lights, have a poor viewing position for the front driver, and it is easy for them to see the barriers raise and assume all is well. Of course they shouldn't, but railway history is littered with tails of SPADs in similar circumstances, so it isn't just car drivers who can fall for this easy mistake

Brissle Girl · 29 Jan 2019

Normally I have very little sympathy for road users who misuse level crossings, but I can entirely see how this could be dangerous. After a train has passed, the raising of the barriers occurs at the same time as the wig-wag lights extinguish. If a motorist sees a barrier in front of him raise, most would take that as a clear sign to proceed, especially at a half barrier when the exit is clear also, and I doubt they would be checking that the lights had also gone out.

It's a completely different position for a motorist who comes across a situation whereby the wig-wag is flashing, but one barrier has failed to drop. In that scenario, there is no ambiguity that one should stop.

Islineclear3_1 · 29 Jan 2019

It is easier to see cars at a junction (where there are faulty traffic lights) than a train approaching from the STOP line at a level crossing. Also, drivers at a junction will usually stop or travel at very slow speed whilst checking for oncoming or conflicting traffic. Very different at a level crossing where the line of sight is more restricted from a car and the train may be travelling at considerable speed under clear signals

sw1ller · 29 Jan 2019

Deafdoggie said:
I think it is confusing, as in, it isn't normal. But that doesn't mean you just drive on as if nothing is wrong! I think what happens with confusion at traffic lights though (they to sometime go wrong) is that car drivers, in effect, proceed at caution through the junction, and that is what they do at faulty level crossings too. The railway really needs a fail-safe system so that trains can't proceed if the barriers are faulty. Clearly that did happen here, and the ideal must be, that with a fault, both cars and trains are halted.

I hate this comment because I agree with it, but I want to argue against it. Haha.

I think the red flashing lights should be replaced with actual road traffic lights. Red amber and green. People don’t seem to recognise these wigwags as real traffic lights. Even thought they’re meant to warn of even greater danger, I think they do the opposite.

What could you use as a fail safe? It has to cost pennies (pennys/penny’s???) because network rail won’t be spending much to install.

sw1ller · 29 Jan 2019

I will also state, I didn’t realise it was a half barrier crossing. I should’ve clicked into the actual story.

ainsworth74 · 29 Jan 2019

sw1ller said:
I think the red flashing lights should be replaced with actual road traffic lights. Red amber and green. People don’t seem to recognise these wigwags as real traffic lights. Even thought they’re meant to warn of even greater danger, I think they do the opposite.

I've seen loads of people jump conventional red lights (or go through on amber that was definitely tinged red by the time they did!) I've yet to see anyone jump a wig-wag. Misuse of level crossing lights gets a lot of attention because it is quite rare (in comparison to the number of vehicles that use crossings daily) whilst jumping conventional lights is almost normalised (which isn't to suggest it isn't wrong, it is, but it is perceived to be less severe and lower risk). So I'm not convinced that changing the crossing light type is wise.

It strikes me that education and publicity is required (that Top Gear segment when they rammed a 31 into a car has stuck with me) as well as continuing the programme of closing crossings (or at least replacing them with full barrier either monitored or obstacle detection). Though I guess part of this comes back to the deplorable state of knowledge of the Highway Code of most drivers (not that I'm a paragon of virtue!) as there is no check on someone's knowledge once they pass their test!

Deafdoggie · 29 Jan 2019

ainsworth74 said:
not that I'm a paragon of virtue!

I find that hard to believe!

sw1ller · 29 Jan 2019

ainsworth74 said:
I've seen loads of people jump conventional red lights (or go through on amber that was definitely tinged red by the time they did!) I've yet to see anyone jump a wig-wag. Misuse of level crossing lights gets a lot of attention because it is quite rare (in comparison to the number of vehicles that use crossings daily) whilst jumping conventional lights is almost normalised (which isn't to suggest it isn't wrong, it is, but it is perceived to be less severe and lower risk). So I'm not convinced that changing the crossing light type is wise.

It strikes me that education and publicity is required (that Top Gear segment when they rammed a 31 into a car has stuck with me) as well as continuing the programme of closing crossings (or at least replacing them with full barrier either monitored or obstacle detection). Though I guess part of this comes back to the deplorable state of knowledge of the Highway Code of most drivers (not that I'm a paragon of virtue!) as there is no check on someone's knowledge once they pass their test!

Yeah, as I was typing this I was thinking the same as you. I just think a traffic light would serve as a better deterrent than wigwags. You’ve seen them jumped because there’s a hell of a lot more of them. But wigwags are jumped too. Id say they are more ignored than standard traffic lights but that’s just my opinion, I’ve not need stats.

Half barrier crossings are awful, I know when I should see the last car traverse the one ahead of my train, but I see cars passing after that time quite often!! I hate them.

Islineclear3_1 · 29 Jan 2019

In terms of fail-safe, I thought barriers would be in the lowered position - clearly I was wrong...

Would a GATSO style of camera be enough of a deterrent?

sw1ller · 29 Jan 2019

robert7111a said:
In terms of fail-safe, I thought barriers would be in the lowered position - clearly I was wrong...

Would a GATSO style of camera be enough of a deterrent?

Like a semiphore signal. Only problem is, a barrier is worked with a motor and if that decideds it wants to raise them, it will.

I don’t think a Gatso would have helped in this situation. But it would help in others. Not a fail safe though.

Muzz · 29 Jan 2019

robert7111a said:
Would a GATSO style of camera be enough of a deterrent?

That crossing has a "Gatso" style camera on both sides

2HAP · 29 Jan 2019

You can't replace wig-wags with traffic lights. Emergency service vehichles must stop at a wig-wag. They don't have to at a red traffic light.

sw1ller · 29 Jan 2019

2HAP said:
You can't replace wig-wags with traffic lights. Emergency service vehichles must stop at a wig-wag. They don't have to at a red traffic light.

That is a rule that can be changed though eh! We’re talking about professional drivers here. I was blue light trained and I could have easily taken this on board.

swt_passenger · 29 Jan 2019

We have this discussion about changing the type of traffic lights about once a year. It’s a bit of a waste of time.

sw1ller · 29 Jan 2019

swt_passenger said:
We have this discussion about changing the type of traffic lights about once a year. It’s a bit of a waste of time.

No it’s not. This is an open forum and a discussion can open at any point. That’s what a forum is all about. That’s what keeps it interesting. The amount of times I’ve wanted to comment on something on here, only to find the discussion closed, is beyond belief.

If you’re fed up with the same old regurgitated tripe, move on. It’s dead simple.

dgl · 29 Jan 2019

In my opinion whilst if something like this happened to me I would still probably use the phone to tell the signaller but at no point would I see any ambiguity in the message it's portraying. If any part of a level crossing is saying STOP (barriers lowered, siren sounding or lights flashing) then you stop.
Remember that every bit of warning/safety equipment is supplemental to everything other safety/warning device and is there to improve safety, so just because one part of the crossing is saying go does overrule/is overruled by any other part of the crossing saying stop.
And if drivers can't understand this then should they be driving?

Deafdoggie · 29 Jan 2019

Interestingly the DoT (whom we all know and love) give the primary reason of installing Wig-Wag as the lights changing being irregular, whereas traffic light changes are predictable. Although it does go on to say that stopping is mandatory at all times for Wig-Wag, this is less of an issue, as the only people authorised to cross a stop line anyway are specially trained, and could easily be trained to know to stop at level crossing, fire stations, airports, etc. The idea being (rightly or wrongly) that Wig-Wag can change at anytime with no warning (well, the amber, but you know what I mean) whereas traffic lights have a regular cycle. So drivers should be more aware around Wig-Wag.

Islineclear3_1 · 29 Jan 2019

sw1ller said:
We’re talking about professional drivers here. I was blue light trained and I could have easily taken this on board.

If you are talking about car drivers, then not all of them are "professional".

al78 · 29 Jan 2019

robert7111a said:
Red lights mean STOP. If one barrier is down and the wig wags are operating, how is that "confusing?"

Thankfully, nobody was hurt and the fault was reported/sorted quickly

The problem occurs if the lead car cannot see the lights, but sees the barrier in front of him/her rise, and notices the opposite barrier has not risen. The question then becomes which barrier is faulty, the one that has risen or the one that has stayed down. Not difficult to see why there would be confusion in such a situation.

sw1ller · 29 Jan 2019

robert7111a said:
If you are talking about car drivers, then not all of them are "professional".

I wasn’t.

And traffic lights are becoming more and more unpredictable. I ride a motorbike and the sensors never pick me up so there’s been times at 3am where ives proceeded at caution through red lights after waiting for over 3-5 minutes for them to change. I think this is a factor and traffic lights are more suitable now. How long ago was the study into the type of lights done? Is it still relevant.

al78 · 29 Jan 2019

sw1ller said:
I hate this comment because I agree with it, but I want to argue against it. Haha.

I think the red flashing lights should be replaced with actual road traffic lights. Red amber and green. People don’t seem to recognise these wigwags as real traffic lights. Even thought they’re meant to warn of even greater danger, I think they do the opposite.

I'm not sure it is to do with recognition, I think it is people don't like being held up and have learnt that there is some time between the lights coming on and a train coming past, so they take a gamble. Rather like those who go through a red traffic light a few seconds after it has changed to red, because they know there is a few seconds delay before another set of lights changes to green.

sw1ller · 29 Jan 2019

al78 said:
The problem occurs if the lead car cannot see the lights, but sees the barrier in front of him/her rise, and notices the opposite barrier has not risen. The question then becomes which barrier is faulty, the one that has risen or the one that has stayed down. Not difficult to see why there would be confusion in such a situation.

It isnt difficult.

If there’s one barrier down and you assume the one that’s down is faulty so proceed on to the crossing, then you need your head checking.

sw1ller · 29 Jan 2019

al78 said:
I'm not sure it is to do with recognition, I think it is people don't like being held up and have learnt that there is some time between the lights coming on and a train coming past, so they take a gamble. Rather like those who go through a red traffic light a few seconds after it has changed to red, because they know there is a few seconds delay before another set of lights changes to green.

I completely agree with this. The main difference being that a car that has past the red a few seconds later is relying on the lack of acceleration/quality brakes of the other cars. Trains don’t have this option so it needs distinguishing correctly. My idea of normal traffic light should be used in conjunction with another type of light or something even better.

sw1ller · 29 Jan 2019

When I was in the Dominican Republic, they had traffic lights with countdown lights (from 30 seconds or 1 minute). Everyone I obeyed these and it kept traffic moving brilliantly. I wonder if this could be implemented here somehow.

Llanigraham · 29 Jan 2019

sw1ller said:
I hate this comment because I agree with it, but I want to argue against it. Haha.

I think the red flashing lights should be replaced with actual road traffic lights. Red amber and green. People don’t seem to recognise these wigwags as real traffic lights. Even thought they’re meant to warn of even greater danger, I think they do the opposite.

What could you use as a fail safe? It has to cost pennies (pennys/penny’s???) because network rail won’t be spending much to install.

We have been through this numerous times on this Forum and sorry but you need to be aware ot the various laws that apply to these lights, especially in relation to Emergency Services vehicles:
Normal road red/amber/green traffic lights can be treated as a "Give Way" to all these vehicles. They may proceed with caution whilst they are on an emergency call (Blue light run).
Red flashing lights, not only found at level crossings, mean STOP to ALL traffic at ALL times.

To make the alterations you propose would many several Laws/Acts would need to be changed.

Level crossing incident Horsham 28/1/19

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