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Curious "half-a-point" on old siding.

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fulfenslade

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I was wondering whether anyone could comment on the siding on the RHS of this old image of Dunmow Station. It looks as if there is a point blade on only the RHS of the track. Given that the siding appears to be in use at the time, what would this be for? The only thing I could think of would be to prevent trucks from rolling back onto the main line, but that seems like an odd way to implement it.
 
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fulfenslade

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Ah, I see - a bit like motorway Escape Lanes.

It's also useful to know the correct terminology, thanks.
 

Blockman

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Catch points and trap points may look similar, but they have different purposes. There's a clear explanation in the RSSB publication "Glossary of Railway Terminology". See
https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERT8000-Gloss%20Iss%205.pdf

To quote:

Catch points: Points designed to derail vehicles running back on a gradient in the wrong direction. These points may be unworked if trains normally pass over them in one direction only.

Trap points: Facing points at an exit from a siding or converging route that derail an unauthorised movement, so protecting the adjacent line.
 

edwin_m

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The one on the OP photo has a blade on only one rail. The modern standard is to have them on both rails.

They are not needed if the layout of the siding/yard allows unwanted wagons to be diverted away from the main line, for example into a headshunt. The trap, or the point that does the diversion, will be on the same lever (or more modern equivalent) as the point connecting the siding/yard to the main line so they always work together, and must be restored to the normal (divert/derail) setting except when a train is signalled to use it.
 

BS56

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There are two others you might like to consider the wide of gauge trap in this case the point blades move inwards and so the wheels fall off the track in a straight line, The other is a slotted joint this looks just like a normal catch point but if need be the point blades can be pulled over against spring pressure so that a train can run over it as normal at certain times as needed this is done by the signalman pulling a lever or sometimes by point motor.
 

Gostav

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This shot at GCR is a good example of how the trap point work.
 
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Ken H

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I can see the point of trap points today. They were certainly necessary in the days of unbraked wagons as they had a habit of running away. I think there was an accident in early days when some unfitted wagons were caught in the slipstream of a passing train and ended up crashing into the side of the passing train.
But i think all catch points on running lines were removed when unfitted freights stopped running.
With unfitted freights the risk of the train dividing and the rear bit running away 'wrong line' was great.
 

Ken H

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This shot at GCR is a good example of how the catch point work.
thats a trap point protecting a main line from an unauthorised movement from a siding, not a catch point. But nice video showing the trap point doing its work.
 

Re 4/4

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I believe from the comments on that video, the driver was authorised to pass the signal at danger (and whistled accordingly) but no-one thought to check the trap points were cleared.
 

Belperpete

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I believe from the comments on that video, the driver was authorised to pass the signal at danger (and whistled accordingly) but no-one thought to check the trap points were cleared.
My recollection is that it was a misunderstanding in the message passed from signalman via guard to the driver. Signalman informed guard that he would authorise the driver to pass the signal, driver took message as authority to pass the signal.
 

Lucan

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... ... Signalman informed guard that he would authorise the driver to pass the signal, driver took message as authority to pass the signal.
I have driven and would instinctively look at the settings of pointwork even though given the go-ahead, especially in the case of an unusual movement, as seems to be the case here. The movement is actually against a signal so is very unusual indeed.

Such trap points are normally interlocked with the signal, unless something had been mechanically disconnected, all the more reason for the driver to look at the points before he moved. I'd certainly sack him anyway.
 

ComUtoR

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I have driven and would instinctively look at the settings of pointwork even though given the go-ahead, especially in the case of an unusual movement, as seems to be the case here. The movement is actually against a signal so is very unusual indeed.

If you look at the Drivers position, the points aren't visible. We have to put a lot of trust in rules and procedure. If I was given permission to pass a signal or got a PoSA, then my expectation is that the points are set for my movement. It was different in the past because you could pass signals on your own authority and had to physically check the points first as part of the procedure.

Passing signals at danger is commonplace and happens shockingly regular. The conversation with the Signaller takes less than a minute.
 

Ken H

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If you look at the Drivers position, the points aren't visible. We have to put a lot of trust in rules and procedure. If I was given permission to pass a signal or got a PoSA, then my expectation is that the points are set for my movement. It was different in the past because you could pass signals on your own authority and had to physically check the points first as part of the procedure.

Passing signals at danger is commonplace and happens shockingly regular. The conversation with the Signaller takes less than a minute.
Is there still a pass signal at danger rule? Stopped at a signal, phone broken so drive to next signal prepared to stop short of any obstruction and not pass over any points.
 

ComUtoR

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Just one left that we can pass on our own authority and one rule for all others. So still technically possible.

The rest were removed some years back. There are still rules about what needs to happen before we are authorized past and what actions we are supposed to take.
 

ComUtoR

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Stopped at a signal, phone broken so drive to next signal prepared to stop short of any obstruction and not pass over any points.

You could pass points. Checking them was part of the procedure. There was a short list of caveats before you could do it and a little more than just a broken phone :)
 

Ken H

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You could pass points. Checking them was part of the procedure. There was a short list of caveats before you could do it and a little more than just a broken phone :)
The tube has/had a stop and proceed rule. There was a nasty accident on the central Line when a train went into the back of another after passing a signal at danger and resetting the trainstop. Comments from the accident inspector about adequate training for stop and proceed. What is a 'driving in a way to stop short of any obstruction'? Difficult.
 

ComUtoR

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Comments from the accident inspector about adequate training for stop and proceed. What is a 'driving in a way to stop short of any obstruction'? Difficult.

The Plymouth incident.

https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/collision-at-plymouth-station

At 15:34 hrs on Sunday 3 April 2016, the 13:39 hrs passenger train service from Penzance to Exeter collided with an empty train which was already waiting in platform 6 at Plymouth station. The collision occurred at a speed of about 15 mph (24 km/h) and resulted in injuries to 48 people and damage to both trains.

There is a lot of misunderstanding on the railway.
 

Ken H

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nice set of catch points visible on the movie embedded in this post https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...adspan-conversions.160044/page-2#post-3351960

Start the movie at 1:30, you see the points and signal box then later at 1:36 the catch points so a run away train will be derailed before getting to the junction.
In the movie you see lots of unfitted freights (with brake vans) which is why you need catch points!
 

Deepgreen

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If you look at the Drivers position, the points aren't visible. We have to put a lot of trust in rules and procedure. If I was given permission to pass a signal or got a PoSA, then my expectation is that the points are set for my movement. It was different in the past because you could pass signals on your own authority and had to physically check the points first as part of the procedure.

Passing signals at danger is commonplace and happens shockingly regular. The conversation with the Signaller takes less than a minute.
It is common, but on the main line it's now almost unknown for the driver not to be able to see the position of points ahead (i.e. to be facing away from the direction of travel and with no view). Most transport accidents occur through mis-communication, perhaps the worst one being the Tenerife air disaster.
 

Deepgreen

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The tube has/had a stop and proceed rule. There was a nasty accident on the central Line when a train went into the back of another after passing a signal at danger and resetting the trainstop. Comments from the accident inspector about adequate training for stop and proceed. What is a 'driving in a way to stop short of any obstruction'? Difficult.
Not difficult - if you can't see anything, don't go; if you do go, drive at a speed where stopping is possible in the distance you can see. The same applies to road driving, but we all see idiots ignoring this basic principle depressingly often.
 

Ken H

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'The right to go fast is your ability to stop'

Dunno who said that - cant find it on google.
 

MadMac

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Are there any unworked catch points still in existence? I recall the “fully fitted railway” being the phrase in the early 80s with the end of unfitted wagons.
 
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