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southeastern defination London Terminals

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chris7153

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According to Southeastern website a non HS1 ticket with destination as London terminals is valid on any reasonable route to;

Victoria, Cannon Street, Charing Cross, Blackfriars, City Thameslink, London Bridge, Waterloo East, Waterloo mainline and Vauxhal.

Why do they include Waterloo and Vauxhal and is my ticket actually valid on SouthWestern Railway between these stations or beyond to Clapham Junction as a reasonable route to Vauxhal??
 
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transportphoto

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What ticket do you hold? It’s impossible for us to advise without this detail :)
 

ForTheLoveOf

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According to Southeastern website a non HS1 ticket with destination as London terminals is valid on any reasonable route to;

Victoria, Cannon Street, Charing Cross, Blackfriars, City Thameslink, London Bridge, Waterloo East, Waterloo mainline and Vauxhal.

Why do they include Waterloo and Vauxhal and is my ticket actually valid on SouthWestern Railway between these stations or beyond to Clapham Junction as a reasonable route to Vauxhal??
The system of 'reasonable routes' applied during the British Rail era, so it finished 23 years ago! Nowadays, it only applies when there's significant disruption and you are told that tickets are accepted on "any reasonable route".

Nowadays we have the Routeing Guide. This defines the routes that a ticket can be used on. Subject to any restrictions printed on your ticket (e.g. "Southeastern only", "not via HS1"), that's:
  • The shortest route which can be completed wholly by rail (i.e. without walking from one station to another), as well as any route no more than 3 miles longer than this shortest route.
  • Any direct train from the printed origin to the printed destination on the ticket.
  • The "mapped routes" that the Routeing Guide permits.
The mapped routes are probably the most complicated part of the Routeing Guide, but as a whole, they generally define those routes which are reasonable but aren't captured by the first two rules of validity (e.g. because a change of trains or stations is involved and/or it's a longer but faster route).

It's not possible to definitively answer your question without knowing your ticket's origin and route restriction (if any), but the rule of thumb is that you can go to any of the south-of-London Termini from origins south of the Thames. If your ticket is valid between Clapham Junction and Victoria then it is also likely to be valid between Clapham Junction and Waterloo.
 

chris7153

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Gillingham Kent day return to london terminals off peak. Non HS1. According to website i should be able to use this to travel to Vauxhal as its listed under there defination of London Terminals.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Gillingham Kent day return to london terminals off peak. Non HS1. According to website i should be able to use this to travel to Vauxhal as its listed under there defination of London Terminals.
Yes, this is valid to travel via, and break your journey at, Vauxhall.
 

higthomas

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That ticket is indeed valid to Vauxhall.
This is not because of the definition of london teminals listed on their website (a Deptford to London ticket wouldn't be valid to Vauxhall for example)
It is because, as mentioned by ForTheLoveOf it is valid according to the routing guide.

Edit: In this case if we look at valid routes from Chatham group (Gillingham) to London, at least one of the maps (FA) has a link from Clapham Junction to London terminals, which obviously includes the line into Waterloo.

Do check out the routing guide for the background to what I've just said.
 

LA50041

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That ticket is indeed valid to Vauxhall.
This is not because of the definition of london teminals listed on their website (a Deptford to London ticket wouldn't be valid to Vauxhall for example)

Has this changed very recently?
I have in the past commuted to Vauxhall from South East London Metro stations with a London Terminals ticket.
National Rail website also sells a Deptford - London Termials ticket for this journey
 

higthomas

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Has this changed very recently?
I have in the past commuted to Vauxhall from South East London Metro stations with a London Terminals ticket.
National Rail website also sells a Deptford - London Termials ticket for this journey

"If there is a common routeing point, the permitted route is the shortest route or a route which is longer by no more than 3 miles. Also permitted is the route followed by direct trains to and from the common routeing point if the journey is made on those trains."
From The routing guide

Deptford to London Bridge is 3 miles. Deptford to Waterloo is 9 miles. Therefore you can't go there on a London Terminals ticket.

It entirely depends on which South East London Metro station you are referring to. Some will be valid to both (generally those further out and more southern than south eastern) others won't. You need to check the routing guide for each station.
 

LA50041

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From The routing guide

Deptford to London Bridge is 3 miles. Deptford to Waterloo is 9 miles. Therefore you can't go there on a London Terminals ticket.

It entirely depends on which South East London Metro station you are referring to. Some will be valid to both (generally those further out and more southern than south eastern) others won't. You need to check the routing guide for each station.

Deptford - London Bridge - Waterloo East - Waterloo - Vauxhall is (or was until about a year or so ago) a valid route for a Deptford - London Terminals ticket
 

higthomas

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Deptford - London Bridge - Waterloo East - Waterloo - Vauxhall is (or was until about a year or so ago) a valid route for a Deptford - London Terminals ticket

Ah, yes of course I hadn't been considering that route. That would be valid. It wouldn't be valid via clapham was what I was meaning.
 

30907

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On the question of validity at Waterloo main:
Historically, from the 60s tickets were issued to London (SR) which was defined identically from all SR stations (there was an handful of stations with more specific fares like Battersea Park and South Bermondsey).
Practically, there are stations on South Eastern which have a fairly obvious and "reasonable" route to Waterloo via Birkbeck and Clapham Jn - anywhere from Beckenham Jn eastwards. Whether these are permitted these days I can't say offhand, but I wouldn't expect hassle except perhaps at a barriered station on the Southern bit.
Recently, during the London Bridge resignalling, there have been SE trains into Waterloo main via the Linford Street (ex Eurostar) curve.
 
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