Pinch point locations for congestion on the GB rail network?

Legolash2o · 28 Feb 2019

Hi,

What are the most busiest and congested pinch points in the UK? I know Leeds Whitehall Jn can get congested, but where are others that people are aware of please?

Thanks.

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Ken H · 28 Feb 2019

Slade lane junction, between Manchester Piccadilly and Stockport

driver9000 · 28 Feb 2019

Ordsall Lane Junction to Slade Lane Junction in Manchester. Especially since the chord opened.

Haymarket.

Glasgow Central is busy but seems to flow well enough.

Ken H · 28 Feb 2019

driver9000 said:
Ordsall Lane Junction to Slade Lane Junction in Manchester. Especially since the chord opened.

Haymarket.

Glasgow Central is busy but seems to flow well enough.

Slade Lane should get a flyover. though which lines do you route over a flyover? The original scheme had the lines out of the terminal platforms going over a flyover and becoming the fast lines south of the junction. But the Airport/Stylal branch is so much busier now.

Its horrid. South from Picc you have it paired by use. Then where the airport/styal branch goes off, it also becomes paired by direction. So nearly every movement conflicts with something.
OK when it works well and you have a train coming off the airport branch at the same time one goes onto it. But any poor timekeeping blows that out of the water.

Mills444 · 28 Feb 2019

Southampton tunnel is fairly congested

Jim Jehosofat · 28 Feb 2019

Ely North Jn

Kite159 · 28 Feb 2019

Tanners Hill Junction where Lewisham bound services from Charing Cross have to cross in front of Charing Cross bound services from the Grove Park direction
Lewisham Vale Junction just outside Lewisham

Legolash2o · 28 Feb 2019

Thanks!

How would you fix them? I've been trying to look into ideas to fix Leeds Whitehall Jn and Manchester Piccadilly area (for fun).

ComUtoR · 28 Feb 2019

Legolash2o said:
How would you fix them?

Grade separation.

Ianno87 · 28 Feb 2019

Legolash2o said:
Thanks!

How would you fix them? I've been trying to look into ideas to fix Leeds Whitehall Jn and Manchester Piccadilly area (for fun).

HS2 in both cases, due to all the other contraints these locations interact with.

Shaw S Hunter · 28 Feb 2019

Ianno87 said:
HS2 in both cases, due to all the other contraints these locations interact with.

HS2 will only help with Slade Lane Jn if we also build HS3/NPR to take trans-Pennine services off the Heald Green route. As for other solutions the long-since defunct South Manchester resignalling scheme would have seen tracks paired by use all the way from Piccadilly to Stockport though that would make the Edgeley Junctions slightly worse. In general terms the cleanest solution to pinchpoints is grade separation but that requires space and lots of money.

Ken H · 28 Feb 2019

Shaw S Hunter said:
HS2 will only help with Slade Lane Jn if we also build HS3/NPR to take trans-Pennine services off the Heald Green route. As for other solutions the long-since defunct South Manchester resignalling scheme would have seen tracks paired by use all the way from Piccadilly to Stockport though that would make the Edgeley Junctions slightly worse. In general terms the cleanest solution to pinchpoints is grade separation but that requires space and lots of money.

You could help with slade lane by making trains more likely to arrive according to the timetable. So a few simpler grade separations elsewhere could help : slade lane

Pity they didnt do it properly as part of the picc-vic scheme

Shaw S Hunter · 28 Feb 2019

Ken H said:
You could help with slade lane by making trains more likely to arrive according to the timetable. So a few simpler grade separations elsewhere could help : slade lane

Pity they didnt do it properly as part of the picc-vic scheme

But that is true of all pinch-points! The issue is how to provide greater resilience when things start to go awry.

The Planner · 1 Mar 2019

Shaw S Hunter said:
But that is true of all pinch-points! The issue is how to provide greater resilience when things start to go awry.

Its true of any junction, not just a pinch point.

The Ham · 1 Mar 2019

Legolash2o said:
Thanks!

How would you fix them? I've been trying to look into ideas to fix Leeds Whitehall Jn and Manchester Piccadilly area (for fun).

There are a number of things that can help:
- grade separated junctions
- new lines
- alternitve routes (which could just avoid passengers needing to go in and back or again)

The latter is why Old Oak Common could work really well if paired with the Southern Approach to Heathrow with services from Basingstoke and Guildford running through to Paddington. As by doing so a large area of the country South West of London would be able to interchange with HS2 without having to go into central London and back or again (which is currently the case when heading North).

camflyer · 1 Mar 2019

Welywn Viaduct and tunnel - only two tracks but carries services on the ECML, Thameslink as well as local commuters and freight. Trouble is that is is that the viaduct Grade II listed so any upgrade would be difficult and expensive.

Closing Welwyn North would help with capacity but that would be very unpopular with the locals.

Andyh82 · 3 Mar 2019

camflyer said:
Welywn Viaduct and tunnel - only two tracks but carries services on the ECML, Thameslink as well as local commuters and freight. Trouble is that is is that the viaduct Grade II listed so any upgrade would be difficult and expensive.

Closing Welwyn North would help with capacity but that would be very unpopular with the locals.

This is the first one that sprung to mind. It is quite ridiculous that such a small length of track causes such a bottle neck.

Ideally they'd build another parallel viaduct in a matching style (but not matching construction methods), not the cheapest project of course but relatively straight forward. The two tunnels just north of Welwyn North don't look to actually tunnel under anything but open countryside so should be quite easy to sort as well. It'd be cheaper than HS2 to Leeds.

bramling · 3 Mar 2019

Andyh82 said:
This is the first one that sprung to mind. It is quite ridiculous that such a small length of track causes such a bottle neck.

Ideally they'd build another parallel viaduct in a matching style (but not matching construction methods), not the cheapest project of course but relatively straight forward. The two tunnels just north of Welwyn North don't look to actually tunnel under anything but open countryside so should be quite easy to sort as well. It'd be cheaper than HS2 to Leeds.

I think sorting Welwyn simply moves the capacity problem elsewhere, although the Thameslink changes may have shifted the dynamic slightly.

Despite the flyover Hitchin is also still a pinch point, with all stopping services having to use the single up and down platforms, along with all up Cambridge services having to pass through the up platform, and down Cambridge services still having a conflict, albeit now the down slow towards Peterborough rather than the up lines. Baldock is a pinch point in the current timetable at the times when trains reverse there (peak times), and the whole Hitchin to Cambridge branch will become an increasing performance liability as it sees more and more services, especially when the number originating from the Thameslink timekeeping lottery increases from 1tph today to the aspired 4tph.

Ken H · 3 Mar 2019

Andyh82 said:
This is the first one that sprung to mind. It is quite ridiculous that such a small length of track causes such a bottle neck.

Ideally they'd build another parallel viaduct in a matching style (but not matching construction methods), not the cheapest project of course but relatively straight forward. The two tunnels just north of Welwyn North don't look to actually tunnel under anything but open countryside so should be quite easy to sort as well. It'd be cheaper than HS2 to Leeds.

another stupid one is Newark. How do we still have the flat crossing on a high speed line? a DfT project to provide a rail flyover and double the A46 should be more cost effective then 2 schemes.

Ken H · 3 Mar 2019

bramling said:
I think sorting Welwyn simply moves the capacity problem elsewhere, although the Thameslink changes may have shifted the dynamic slightly.

Despite the flyover Hitchin is also still a pinch point, with all stopping services having to use the single up and down platforms, along with all up Cambridge services having to pass through the up platform, and down Cambridge services still having a conflict, albeit now the down slow towards Peterborough rather than the up lines. Baldock is a pinch point in the current timetable at the times when trains reverse there (peak times), and the whole Hitchin to Cambridge branch will become an increasing performance liability as it sees more and more services, especially when the number originating from the Thameslink timekeeping lottery increases from 1tph today to the aspired 4tph.

They need to do a flyover at the junction at the other end of that line at Shepreth branch Junction. But its in the middle of Great Shalford.

dk1 · 3 Mar 2019

Ken H said:
They need to do a flyover at the junction at the other end of that line at Shepreth branch Junction. But its in the middle of Great Shalford.

Cambridge-Shepreth branch Jcn 4-tracking with separation of both routes through the planned Cambridge South Parkway would be better but I think the guided busway is on part of the old formation.

Ianno87 · 3 Mar 2019

bramling said:
and the whole Hitchin to Cambridge branch will become an increasing performance liability as it sees more and more services, especially when the number originating from the Thameslink timekeeping lottery increases from 1tph today to the aspired 4tph.

Luckily, the timetable is very well designed to counteract this - the ex-Maidstone services (currently ex-King's Cross) drop in last in the sequence at Welwyn (with some recovery time at Welwyn GC) so will not knock the rest of the branch if late, and the Brighton-Cambridges have a couple of minutes r recovery at Funsbury Park.

Boarding the northbound Brighton-Cambridge at the moment in the evening peak, its rarely late at all departing Finsbury Park, to get its path in front of the Kings Lynn.

If it is late departing Finsbury Park, its usually the result of a late start of something out of King's Cross - the xx30/33/36 flight that precedes it.

alangla · 3 Mar 2019

Kelvinhaugh to Hyndland is a bit tight- grade separated at the eastern end, flat at the west & the potential for delays to be imported from both the WCML and Edinburgh area. To add to the fun, there’s sections of single track at the end of most of the routes running from there.

jopsuk · 3 Mar 2019

dk1 said:
Cambridge-Shepreth branch Jcn 4-tracking with separation of both routes through the planned Cambridge South Parkway would be better but I think the guided busway is on part of the old formation.

Nope, there's four tracks under Hills Road (one is a stub siding) and then the down loop is situated in a lot of space to well after the busway formation diverges. The bridge that carries the Busway spur to the hospital and the one for Addenbrookes Road were built with four-tracks in mind. A new bridge would be needed at Long Road

LNW-GW Joint · 3 Mar 2019

Birmingham New St, both ends.
The trouble is there's almost nothing you can do to the tunnel entrances or platforms to speed things up.

Clearing out most of the VTs to London, and some XCs to the north (via HS2), will help.
The Bordesley chords into Moor St from the Midland would also help.
Either way Birmingham is going to become a more complicated place after all these changes.

ForTheLoveOf · 3 Mar 2019

LNW-GW Joint said:
Birmingham New St, both ends.
The trouble is there's almost nothing you can do to the tunnel entrances or platforms to speed things up.

Clearing out most of the VTs to London, and some XCs to the north (via HS2), will help.
The Bordesley chords into Moor St from the Midland would also help.
Either way Birmingham is going to become a more complicated place after all these changes.

Indeed, though that doesn't increase capacity, it just reuses it.

fgwrich · 3 Mar 2019

LNW-GW Joint said:
Birmingham New St, both ends.
The trouble is there's almost nothing you can do to the tunnel entrances or platforms to speed things up.

Clearing out most of the VTs to London, and some XCs to the north (via HS2), will help.
The Bordesley chords into Moor St from the Midland would also help.
Either way Birmingham is going to become a more complicated place after all these changes.

If only Railtrack didn't decide that they didn't need that extra space offered up by the BullRing development. A very shortsighted decision in my opinion.

As for pinch points on the Southern / South Western, I'd certainly put both Basingstoke - St Deny's - Southampton Central on that list. Basingstoke's pinch point comes from it being in effect 2 separate junctions with a lot of north - south coast freight passing through, on top of the South Western services, Cross Country and GW stoppers. The section between Shawford and Worting Junction consisting of double track doesn't help at times either.

dk1 · 3 Mar 2019

jopsuk said:
Nope, there's four tracks under Hills Road (one is a stub siding) and then the down loop is situated in a lot of space to well after the busway formation diverges. The bridge that carries the Busway spur to the hospital and the one for Addenbrookes Road were built with four-tracks in mind. A new bridge would be needed at Long Road

Thank you. I don't sign South of the station only ever passing through as a passenger.

theironroad · 3 Mar 2019

SWML:

Woking

Basingstoke

Haywain · 3 Mar 2019

Waterloo - Clapham Junction - Barnes and Waterloo - Clapham Junction - Wimbledon (and beyond). Massively congested and even making the current trains longer seems likely to add to the problem as it longer for each signal section to clear.

Pinch point locations for congestion on the GB rail network?

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