darloscott
Member
Given we've just had a huge number printed for our new service and we're starting to run out after just 3 weeks operation I would suggest lots of people still rely on printed timetables.
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West Yorkshire Metro to move to a 'digital first' information strategy
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They cant change at 56 days notice anymore without permission from the relevant authority (i.e. West Yorkshire Metro). Newspapers appear to manage to change every day and still get printed.
How often do authorities block changes?
Buses are not primarily selling timetables, whereas newspapers are primary selling newspapers. Even newspapers are losing circulation and increasingly reliant upon their websites.
‘A mere 56 days’
They aren’t writing them out by hand. That is ample time to produce a timetable, and indeed they manage it now, even for a particularly busy changing window.
You'd have to ask the authorities, the point being that, without agreement, the change cant happen in 56 days anymore.
But it would be better if changes were restricted to one or two days a year, for example when train times change. It is a waste of human effort to change timetables frequently. And for what benefit? It is far from obvious that changing timetables frequently improves patronage levels.
So has an authority ever blocked a change where sufficient notice has been given?
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
I don't know, but in West Yorkshire the operators have agreed to limit changes to the four main timetsble change dates.
I can't imagine they would object often. Short notice changes are usually because of roadworks or because the operator is struggling for money.
That's my understanding too.
Which is why I suspect that their contribution is no longer sufficient and operators are not prepared to increase it.
Bantamzen
Established Member
Quite honestly given the number of changes operators are making to so many services across West Yorks to try to keep services running to timetables because of congestion, its really no wonder why they & Metro are moving away from printed timetables. Some services have had so many changes the only way to keep track of them is by checking the live feeds for their movements. And to be honest for the majority of people this isn't necessarily a bad thing, many people have access to mobile devices capable of checking both online & actual timings so having thousands of printed timetables just gathering dust in a travel centre somewhere makes less & less sense.
Of course there will always be some demand, but surely either making them available to be printed on demand at centres, or sent via post to those that require them is a better option than just wasting tons of paper every year. There will of course still be some need for timetables at stops, especially where no live running screens are installed but again QR / NFC tags are being used by more & more people even at these stops. I've used NFC tags at multiple stops, and apart from when they are badly sited in the cover they work very well.
As an aside, on of the best online systems I've used was back in 2015 with The Bus on Oahu, their app uses Google maps with approximate / exact locations of all their buses, and with live estimates for their entire network. It was a wonderfully simple app to use, and meant that travel around the island was a breeze as you could time yourself to arrive at the stop just before the bus arrived. I know other companies around the world use similar, and to be honest this is going to be the best way forward in the long run. It also gave details of transfer points around the island, making planning simple too.
Of course there will always be some demand, but surely either making them available to be printed on demand at centres, or sent via post to those that require them is a better option than just wasting tons of paper every year. There will of course still be some need for timetables at stops, especially where no live running screens are installed but again QR / NFC tags are being used by more & more people even at these stops. I've used NFC tags at multiple stops, and apart from when they are badly sited in the cover they work very well.
As an aside, on of the best online systems I've used was back in 2015 with The Bus on Oahu, their app uses Google maps with approximate / exact locations of all their buses, and with live estimates for their entire network. It was a wonderfully simple app to use, and meant that travel around the island was a breeze as you could time yourself to arrive at the stop just before the bus arrived. I know other companies around the world use similar, and to be honest this is going to be the best way forward in the long run. It also gave details of transfer points around the island, making planning simple too.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
I remember back around the turn of the century, WYPTE spent millions giving West Yorkshire's bus stations a much-needed refurbishment... part of this included bright, clear digital displays which listed the next departures, IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER like any sensible person would want...
A few years back, these displays were modified and now, if you want to find your bus you have to follow it as it dances around the display seemingly at random. Some buses aren't listed until 3mins before departure, while other routes will have the next three listed even if the third one isn't due for another 90 minutes. Presumably there's someone still getting paid to sit in an office in Leeds who is responsible for this change- one so counter-intuitive that it deserves to be called idiotic.
tl;dr. I don't trust Metro to implement this change competently, given their track record.
A few years back, these displays were modified and now, if you want to find your bus you have to follow it as it dances around the display seemingly at random. Some buses aren't listed until 3mins before departure, while other routes will have the next three listed even if the third one isn't due for another 90 minutes. Presumably there's someone still getting paid to sit in an office in Leeds who is responsible for this change- one so counter-intuitive that it deserves to be called idiotic.
tl;dr. I don't trust Metro to implement this change competently, given their track record.
The one in Keighley shows routes in numerical order 1 to 9, A1 to Z9, 10 to 99, A01 to Z99, 100 to 999, . It'll show a route if there's a bus due in the next 30 minutes. It'll show more than one of the same route if the destination or list of via points is different. Once it runs out of spaces it scrolls all the remaining services - but just on the last line - so the 903 and K19 may not be showing, even if only a couple of minutes away. As my routes home are the 62, 66, 903 and M4, I have to look all over the board to see if one's about to go, rather than looking at what's due in the next 5 minutes and then relaxing.
I’m not sure what the post two above is on about, they are all in time order except for Keighley where due to the number of services pretty much fit on the board they list them in service order, rather than listing umpteen 662s and missing loads of services off.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
They aren't in order, unless they've corrected Huddersfield in the last couple of weeks. Dewsbury isn't, Batley isn't, and Huddersfield wasn't the last time I was in there.
It also doesn't help that some are given a departure time while others are given a countdown. There may well be a reason for this, or a formula which determines which is displayed, but it isn't apparent. Ultimately the system they use and the way they use it is not user-friendly.
It's likely that the countdown is real time information and the departure time is just a quote from the timetable (or the other way around!). The difference is useful if you know the reason as a real time one that goes off the list means it hasn't turned up and is unlikely to, a timetabled one that goes off the list can just mean it's delayed.
I believe Huddersfield and Leeds sort them by departure time. Unfortunately it's not predicted departure time, but scheduled departure time - which works well if everything is on time and is dreadful when there's disruption.
The Countdown displays when the bus is fitted with the AVL kit, the driver is correctly logged in and everything is working. Otherwise, the scheduled time shows.
Some operators seem to have no plans to fit the kit. It surprises me that it doesn't seem to be a requirement of any Metro contracts these days.
They are all except Keighley, in order of the timetabled time. Some have real time tracking so will show a XXmins
That's why you might get
233 Denby Dale 13:15
185 Marsden Dirker 8mins
231 Wakefield Bus Station 13:20
In this case the 185 is at 13:18 but is running late. The other two don't track in real time
At bus stations, the operators have to not just have real time tracking, but also input their running boards, so the system knows that the departure is linked to an arrival.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
There lies a big part of the problem... there's no way of the average passenger knowing whether the display is real-time or not. Once they've been let down a couple of times they'll treat all the displays as inaccurate.
The boards at stations worked fine when first installed, though only giving scheduled times meant the display only updated as services reached their timetabled departure time. Not ideal if there's a delay but it was good enough for 2001-2002.
As the ability to give realtime information has developed, they've tried to do this on a display that doesn't quite work. Now, it appears to show the buses seemingly at random (though as you've explained, that isn't the case) and the display shifts every few seconds making it hard to read.
A more modern departure board would be able to display both scheduled and realtime information much like displays at railway stations do, unfortunately it'll be a while before the ITA will have the budget for such an investment.
Anyway, thanks for the explanation... I knew there'd be some method behind the madness!
They’ve been explaining the difference between real time and timetabled time right since when the real time system was first introduced. Some general public might not understand it, but that will always be the case as it’s quicker to not understand something than it is to do so. They also don’t understand that buses can’t fly and if a bus is round the corner stuck in heavy traffic it’ll say ‘2 mins’ longer than 2 mins.
Surely by now any operator not supplying real time info should lose their licence to operate. People should definitely stop using those operators. Other operators have supplied real time info for 10+ years.
Busaholic
Veteran Member
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That's the modern maxim, though - if it works, it must be changed to ensure it doesn't work any longer. What could be easier/better than a fully comprehensive timetable for an area in printed form, incorporating maps? Once you have to rely on online, first you have to get online, access the right site and, then, wonder if that information is complete and up-to-date (almost all print timetables have their start date unlike online.) Anyone who thinks a map is better seen on a phone than on paper needs their eyes testing, too!
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
Have they? I understand the difference but I've never seen any documentation or publicity from Metro stating this. No disclaimers about it being the operators responsibility to fit the kit, no explanation of why the times shown on the screens don't always tally up with the printed timetables.
WYPTE used to be great in terms of information, even when technology such as GPS-based real-time tracking was the stuff of dreams. They engaged with schoolchildren about things like fares and safety, they printed timetables for both rail and bus, they were a model of what a PTE could and should be.
The rot which began with deregulation has continued with years of funding cuts, and the balance of power between operators and the PTE has shifted too far in favour of the latter.
NorthernSpirit
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The main bus station screens in Huddersfield flash every so often as well, which blanks half of the screen. Probably a fault with the software used, then again I can't see this being repaired any time soon. Otley bus station has a screen which is in the window of the Otley Town Council offices, half the time its either crashed or the screen states control, alt and delete as the PC has rebooted itself although the screen will be managed by OTC rather than Metro. The YourNextBus screen at Wetherby "bus station" seems to crash frequently as well, last time I was there it was displaying the 174 on a Sunday.
The rot set in when the PTE was scrapped in 2014 and replaced with the West Yorkshire Combined Authority which seem to emulate certain elements of a county council without there actually being one. If WYCA was ever scrapped I wouldn't say no to a "West Yorkshire Metropolitian Passenger Transport Unit" that would function the same way as a transport department does in a county council. Get the thing based in Chantry House in Wakefield (which needs renovating) along with the rest of West Yorkshire Joint Services and we'd see the rest of Kirkgate sprused up as well.
Certainly not true. I regularly see all sorts of people grabbing timetables at tourist information centres, travel shops and on the bus.
Obviously more people are looking online for information, but most elderly people still rely on paper information, as do many other types of people. I consider myself tech-savvy, but I still don't think online information is as good as paper timetables.
The problem is the assumption is that online is easier and anybody who dosent want to do things online is a Luddite and should be ignored. Looking up transport times, if you know what you're after and have the timetable to hand, is easier on paper and always will be. If you don't know what you're after it's likely to be quicker online as long as Google can find it.
However most of the time, for the provider, it's cheaper online and this is the usual driver behind moves such as this.
This happens in Keighley and Bradford too.
Bantamzen
Established Member
Paper timetables are only useful if the buses run to schedule. Unfortunately these days thanks to congestion many don't, especially in many towns and cities so online and electronic live running is far more useful. People want to know when their buses are going to arrive, hence the move to electronic information.
Most of the time, buses operate to time or few minutes late. Thats in my experience anyway. Paper timetables can be used to plan trips, or to see if its worth using a particular route for a regular commute. Realtime electronic information is then useful on the actual day you're travelling, to check its all running ok. Paper timetables and electronic realtime information should work hand in hand. In the same way I like to see which particular scheduled train I am planning to get, then use Realtime Trains and the passenger displays at stations to check its still running to time.
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