Transpennine Express Train cancellation and onward travel

My friend and I travelled on 11.22 train from Manchester to Glasgow on 1st March only for the train, operated by trans Pennine Express, to be terminated at Carlisle due to a broken down freight train blocking the line.

After standing for more than an hour and a half at the station with no sign of any replacement bus services we had no option other to get a taxi to Glasgow, and we were lucky to find two other people to share the £200 cost with. We had top price tickets to the Indoor European athletics championships which we would have missed if we hadn’t got a taxi. We also had athletics tickets in our possession for friends we were meeting in Glasgow, who also would have missed the event if we had not taken this action.

We put a claim in for train tickets and taxi fares, but were only credited back the train fare.

This was part of the response received
"I can appreciate your reasons for arranging alternative transport, but I understand you took this decision without first consulting alternative arrangements with a member of staff.
We do not normally meet such costs where we haven’t been consulted in advance and given the opportunity to resolve the matter with our suppliers, and sometimes dependent on the delay we may not even be in a position to run alternative transport. This is explained in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, which explains the details of the contract between the customer and train operating company. Therefore, I regret that I must decline your request for reimbursement of your taxi fare on this occasion"


At Carlise most of the staff on the station did a runner when it was clear there was going to be a delay and no onward transport arrangements. I did ask for clarification on timing on the Trans Pennine Express twitter but was told there was no ETA for replacement transport. We did consult with a member of staff on the station concourse who said that buses would be coming but it was school run time and they had no idea when. I think we tried our best to find someone who could provide information .

I have asked TransPennine Express who I should have got this permission from? And where we could find them on the station considering most of the station staff mysteriously disappeared. The member of staff we spoke to did not advise us that we had to get any prior permission, and in fact one Virgin Train person said he could contact his mate who was a taxi driver.

Can anyone enlighten me in such circumstance who is the relevant person I should have sought permission, in the circumstances we tried our best to find what to do but were let down by lack of information from Transpennine Express station and availability of station staff to ask.

I think you made the right choice by taking a taxi from your own funds, but I'd suggest that if you had something absolutely time-critical like that and an hour and a half's delay would jeopardise it, you should have travelled earlier or maybe the previous day. You could just as easily have been stuck for an hour and a half on the motorway.

I'm not quite sure who would have needed to give permission, but that level of delay is not a circumstance in which permission would generally be forthcoming.

One thing I do find surprising, though, is that nobody suggested travelling via Kilmarnock - or would that have got you there too late?

Unfortunately, this is one for travel insurance I feel. But then again, travel insurance might not pay out either, saying that you didn't leave enough time to get to your event.

It's quite unfortunate but there is usually no entitlement to immediate onward transport in such cases, and train companies will usually not be liable for the cost of alternative transport where it can reasonably be believed they will actually organise it.

Amazing to see they are still saying its the 'NCoC' just like they do on their trains

I'm not sure you'd have an entitlement to a refund here either.

If you were on the 11:22 from Manchester, you'd have arrived into Carlisle around 13:15. If travelling for the Indoor Athletics Championships, I presume then that you were heading for the event starting at 19:00 (schedule here)? If MyTrainJourney is correct, then the 14:47 from Carlisle that day arrived into Glasgow less than an hour late, ie, before 17:00; the 15:05 via Kilmarnock arrived at 17:37; and the 15:46 arrived within 15 minutes of its due time, ie, by 17:15. While not ideal, I'd have thought these would all have got you to the venue relatively comfortably for the 19:00 start.

However, I can appreciate that on the day a lack of information and a 90 minute delay would be enough to make you nervous about missing the event; it would me. You might write again emphasizing the lack of information and indeed the apparent misinformation given by staff at the station, which if an accurate reflection of what you were told, seems poor. In particular, they should have pointed out that even if the mainline didn't reopen, the 15:05 would have taken to Glasgow via a different slower route but with enough time to get to the venue. This would be a customer service complaint rather than a claim regarding late travel, but - and I repeat, that this is taking your post as an accurate account of what happened - a well written complaint might elicit a positive outcome because it would seem to me that you were served poorly at Carlisle.

cuccir said:

I'm not sure you'd have an entitlement to a refund here either.

If you were on the 11:22 from Manchester, you'd have arrived into Carlisle around 13:15. If travelling for the Indoor Athletics Championships, I presume then that you were heading for the event starting at 19:00 (schedule here)? If MyTrainJourney is correct, then the 14:47 from Carlisle that day arrived into Glasgow less than an hour late, ie, before 17:00; the 15:05 via Kilmarnock arrived at 17:37; and the 15:46 arrived within 15 minutes of its due time, ie, by 17:15. While not ideal, I'd have thought these would all have got you to the venue relatively comfortably for the 19:00 start.

However, I can appreciate that on the day a lack of information and a 90 minute delay would be enough to make you nervous about missing the event; it would me. You might write again emphasizing the lack of information and indeed the apparent misinformation given by staff at the station, which if an accurate reflection of what you were told, seems poor. In particular, they should have pointed out that even if the mainline didn't reopen, the 15:05 would have taken to Glasgow via a different slower route but with enough time to get to the venue. This would be a customer service complaint rather than a claim regarding late travel, but - and I repeat, that this is taking your post as an accurate account of what happened - a well written complaint might elicit a positive outcome because it would seem to me that you were served poorly at Carlisle.

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If the OP had an Advance ticket originally booked on TransPennine Express, Scotrail wouldn't be obliged to take them via Kilmarnock free of charge.

cuccir said:

I'm not sure you'd have an entitlement to a refund here either.

If you were on the 11:22 from Manchester, you'd have arrived into Carlisle around 13:15. If travelling for the Indoor Athletics Championships, I presume then that you were heading for the event starting at 19:00 (schedule here)? If MyTrainJourney is correct, then the 14:47 from Carlisle that day arrived into Glasgow less than an hour late, ie, before 17:00; the 15:05 via Kilmarnock arrived at 17:37; and the 15:46 arrived within 15 minutes of its due time, ie, by 17:15. While not ideal, I'd have thought these would all have got you to the venue relatively comfortably for the 19:00 start.

However, I can appreciate that on the day a lack of information and a 90 minute delay would be enough to make you nervous about missing the event; it would me. You might write again emphasizing the lack of information and indeed the apparent misinformation given by staff at the station, which if an accurate reflection of what you were told, seems poor. In particular, they should have pointed out that even if the mainline didn't reopen, the 15:05 would have taken to Glasgow via a different slower route but with enough time to get to the venue. This would be a customer service complaint rather than a claim regarding late travel, but - and I repeat, that this is taking your post as an accurate account of what happened - a well written complaint might elicit a positive outcome because it would seem to me that you were served poorly at Carlisle.

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There was confusion about whether we could go on the slow train. Also there had been three trains that had been curtailed at Calrlise so there were a large number of passengers around. the slow train would have not got us there in time.
The event started before 7pm with an opening ceremony. We had to deposit our cases at our central hotel.

The taxi refund has been denied because we didn't get authorisation ( not because we should have allowed for any delays) and my issue is that if that's the case they need people on site to tell you exactly WHAT you can do.

The refund

ForTheLoveOf said:

Unfortunately, this is one for travel insurance I feel. But then again, travel insurance might not pay out either, saying that you didn't leave enough time to get to your event.

It's quite unfortunate but there is usually no entitlement to immediate onward transport in such cases, and train companies will usually not be liable for the cost of alternative transport where it can reasonably be believed they will actually organise it.

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The train company has refused it because it wasn't authorised but I cant find any information about WHO should authorise it and given that most staff disappeared and those left had no idea what was going on I cant see how they can expect me to get authoristaion.

ForTheLoveOf said:

If the OP had an Advance ticket originally booked on TransPennine Express, Scotrail wouldn't be obliged to take them via Kilmarnock free of charge.

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No, but a single would be cheaper than a taxi.

Given ScotRail basically doesn't prosecute and doesn't do PFs, I'd just board and ask the guard, and cough up if requested, then claim a refund of the original fare from TPE.

anne said:

The train company has refused it because it wasn't authorised but I cant find any information about WHO should authorise it and given that most staff disappeared and those left had no idea what was going on I cant see how they can expect me to get authoristaion.

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They are in no way guaranteeing that a member of staff would have authorised it even if you had found one. Unfortunately, the simple fact is that you can't insist on immediate transport, only damages (delay compensation) if you are delayed. If you decide to make your own arrangements then that is at your own risk/cost.

No need to buy another ticket - other operators are obliged to assist (TSA 10-2b):

Obligation to carry
...
(b) If any event occurs which is capable of affecting two or more trains of an Operator and is likely to result in passengers who are using or wish to use those trains being delayed by more than an hour, every other Operator must use its reasonable endeavours to enable the passenger to complete his journey on its trains at no extra charge.

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Compensation is now a matter for consumer law and is no longer constrained by the amount paid for the ticket. Start from the information box in the NRCoT if you want to consider this avenue:

The Consumer Rights Act 2015 provides consumers with various rights, e.g., rights where a service is not performed with reasonable care and skill (see section 49 of the Act). For information regarding your rights when you are travelling as a consumer, including under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, see, www.gov.uk/consumer-protection-rights

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(So, amongst many other options, you might, for example, want to ascertain whether the failure of the freight train could be attributed to a lack of reasonable care and skill, and consider similarly the failure of the company to arrange the alternative transport itself in a timely manner. Clearly alternative transport was available to be arranged as you found a taxi. Separately there's the question of whether any of this amounted to a breach of contract.)

Sounds like a claim under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 would be successful as the service wasn't performed with reasonable care. If the line wouldn't be reopening for an unknown period of time the buses should have been resourced. How long should folk have to wait, the next train could be hours and there is no guarantee of even being able to board?

Send a letter before action, and if need-be take them to the small claims part at the county court.

As for the Scotrail service, if multiple trains had been cancelled at Carlisle for onward travel towards Scotland, it would probably been a case of "how many people can you squeeze onto a 156 challenge".

Kite159 said:

Sounds like a claim under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 would be successful as the service wasn't performed with reasonable care.

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The Consumer Rights Act 2015 provides for 2 remedies where a service is not provided with reasonable care and skill. The first is for a repeat performance of the service. Where this isn't possible or can't be done within a reasonable time, the second remedy is a reduction in price, which can be up to 100% of the price paid.

The OP has already had a refund of the fares paid, so a claim under CAR 2015 would not seem to offer anything further.

The OP may have a claim for consequential loss or damages, but such a claim would be under different legislation and/or for breach of contract. It seems to me that the OP and their friend are out of pocket to the tune of £100 (their share of the taxi fare) minus the fares of the 2 Manchester-Glasgow (Advance?) tickets which have been refunded. Unless they suffered any further injury than arriving in Glasgow later than expected, this amount (£60-70?) is the maximum in damages they could hope to claim even if the OP can show that the TOC is actually liable for their loss.

cuccir said:

However, I can appreciate that on the day a lack of information and a 90 minute delay would be enough to make you nervous about missing the event; it would me. You might write again emphasizing the lack of information and indeed the apparent misinformation given by staff at the station, which if an accurate reflection of what you were told, seems poor. In particular, they should have pointed out that even if the mainline didn't reopen, the 15:05 would have taken to Glasgow via a different slower route but with enough time to get to the venue. This would be a customer service complaint rather than a claim regarding late travel, but - and I repeat, that this is taking your post as an accurate account of what happened - a well written complaint might elicit a positive outcome because it would seem to me that you were served poorly at Carlisle.

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I would agree that a well worded complaint about the lack of information and advice provided at Carlisle ought to be treated seriously by the TOC and some kind of goodwill gesture made.

Transpennine Express have responded changing the reason for not reimbursing the taxi costs.

In the original reply, the reason was that the taxi was not pre- authorised so could not be paid. Now it seems that because of the information I provided to counter that in my last email, they now give me a reason that I could have taken a later train.

you couldn't make it up!!

It doesn't really matter - you were not entitled to a taxi. There may be several reasons why this is the case.

You chose to take one yourself and pay for it - your choice.

While BR was a bit more profligate with this kind of thing, these days taxis are only provided in the case of overnight strandings in most cases.

anne said:

Transpennine Express have responded changing the reason for not reimbursing the taxi costs.

In the original reply, the reason was that the taxi was not pre- authorised so could not be paid. Now it seems that because of the information I provided to counter that in my last email, they now give me a reason that I could have taken a later train.

you couldn't make it up!!

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Well no, that isn't an utterly ridiculous reason by itself. You are only 100% unquestionably entitled to a taxi if you have missed the last train of the day. You cannot be, and aren't, expected to hang around the station overnight. A long wait during the daytime is fair game though.

ForTheLoveOf said:

Well no, that isn't an utterly ridiculous reason by itself. You are only 100% unquestionably entitled to a taxi if you have missed the last train of the day.

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Not even necessarily that, the railway can instead offer hotel accommodation. Though there are very few cases in which it would choose that over a taxi, generally only where it can't get a taxi to do a particular journey e.g. if you missed the last Far North Line service or something.

Bletchleyite said:

Not even necessarily that, the railway can instead offer hotel accommodation. Though there are very few cases in which it would choose that over a taxi, generally only where it can't get a taxi to do a particular journey e.g. if you missed the last Far North Line service or something.

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Well indeed, but I can't think of the last time someone has been put up in a hotel!

The point I was making is that Transpennine Express seemed very clear on the reason for not paying in the original email, ie not authorised but now have appeared to change the reason for not paying.

I may not be "entitled" but I do expect consistency in their response to me as their customer and not change it because I challenged it,

ForTheLoveOf said:

Well indeed, but I can't think of the last time someone has been put up in a hotel!

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Preston a few years ago when severe weather closed the WCML and taxis wouldn't do it either. They took all the remaining rooms in Preston and still had a few on the booking office floor, I believe.

ForTheLoveOf said:

Well indeed, but I can't think of the last time someone has been put up in a hotel!

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Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Sort of OT but when Eurostar was late, we were advised to get a hotel in London and claim back. Much cheaper than a taxi from London to Doncaster. Good job my mate had his credit card, as I couldn’t have afforded £105, which was the cheapest we could find at 2330 near Kings X without sharing a bed. To be fair, Eurostar refunded in seven days without question.

ForTheLoveOf said:

Well indeed, but I can't think of the last time someone has been put up in a hotel!

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How would you even know the last time it happened? It could have happened last night.

ForTheLoveOf said:

Well indeed, but I can't think of the last time someone has been put up in a hotel!

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It’s happened this week. It’s just not publicised; nor is it necessary for it to be publicised.

Customer misses last connection onto a long distance journey. Road journey is of unreasonable length. (Few taxi providers will consider 200+mi journey at 1am) so accommodation is offered with onward travel authorised for following day.

I’d say it happens several times a week nationally.

As has been said, I think the most likely way of getting anything further back is to make a claim based on poor customer service you recrrece at Carlisle.

Bletchleyite said:

Not even necessarily that, the railway can instead offer hotel accommodation. Though there are very few cases in which it would choose that over a taxi, generally only where it can't get a taxi to do a particular journey e.g. if you missed the last Far North Line service or something.

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ForTheLoveOf said:

Well indeed, but I can't think of the last time someone has been put up in a hotel!

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I've known two people become stranded overnight on Saturday having missed the final (then 1900) England-bound service of the day at Edinburgh because of a ScotRail connection. One, going to Huddersfield, was put into a taxi. The other, going to Manchester, was offered overnight accomodation to continue their journey the following day. It simply depends on the circumstances. I've been in a queue of passengers at Carlisle late at night where taxis were being booked from Crewe station to the intended destination of various passengers, including Nottingham, London, Bangor and Portsmouth.

Seeing both sides of the argument here. Although an alternative local service seems to have been available, the limited capacity of it, the absence/desertion of staff caused by TPE Retail control not getting buses on probably mitigates to some degree the passenger allowing a relatively short time between arrival and their event. Like it or not, I would suggest this is for either the Rail Ombudsman (after 8 weeks or a deadlock letter) or a County Court (prob MCOL) to decide if TPE or the customer acted reasonably.