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SouthEastern franchise direct award through to 1 April 2020 (& franchise competition terminated)

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adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Regarding LSER and assuming it is an abbreviation for London & South Eastern Railway, should it actually be LCSER, with that abbreviation meaning the London, Chatham, & South Eastern Railway so as to reflect the history of the myriad of routes in South East London and Kent?
 
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Regarding LSER and assuming it is an abbreviation for London & South Eastern Railway, should it actually be LCSER, with that abbreviation meaning the London, Chatham, & South Eastern Railway so as to reflect the history of the myriad of routes in South East London and Kent?


Nope because the trading name of the incumbent operator can be abbreviated to LSER.
 

Jimstar

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I literally have no idea. Vague generic statements are meaningless. I take it to mean that the OLR will be stepping in to replace LSER and that nobody has been awarded the franchise and that there is no extension and that the OLR will be stepping in; just like when Integrated Kent took over.



Not to denigrate HH but they have said nothing of any real substance and offered nothing more than tidbits and generic information. I could offer more insight from internal communications.

What I will do, until the franchise has been awarded or the OLR takes over is take any information with a pinch of salt. What do you interpret HHs word to mean ? Personally I have got to the point where I couldn't care who gets it and the difference between the person who has the key is so insignificant then I find the entire process just a matter of a rose, by any other name.

The impact it does have is that the franchise will stagnate until it is awarded in full. What I care about is the introduction of new units and the removal of first class. That will only come with the new franchise. The May timetable has been agreed and will be put in place regardless of who has the keys.

If anybody knows something definitive then please post it, anything else is meaningless tbvfh.

I personally interpret it as the OLR has been stood up ready but LSER have got a chance to prevent this by as HH says ‘beavering away’ at whatever that may be.

All I know is a shambles of epic proportions...
 

ScotGG

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GoVia: "We'll put a feather duster over a couple of networkers and a couple of staff at a station or two."

Grayling: "Go on then, five more years."
 

Helvellyn

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Smells like VTEC again - Management contract option to continue VTEC was rejected in favour of the OLR option, and LNER was reborn.

So it could be that in light of the Williams review DfT don't want to let the franchise, have asked GoVia to put together a Management contract/Direct Award proposal but have the OLR option being lined up to take over if required.
 

Jimstar

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Smells like VTEC again - Management contract option to continue VTEC was rejected in favour of the OLR option, and LNER was reborn.

So it could be that in light of the Williams review DfT don't want to let the franchise, have asked GoVia to put together a Management contract/Direct Award proposal but have the OLR option being lined up to take over if required.
Exactly what I believe to be the case. Less politically damaging for DFT then direct award and cancelling the franchise and can be framed within Williams review context.

HH is this what you think to be the case?
 

George109

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Smells like VTEC again - Management contract option to continue VTEC was rejected in favour of the OLR option, and LNER was reborn.

So it could be that in light of the Williams review DfT don't want to let the franchise, have asked GoVia to put together a Management contract/Direct Award proposal but have the OLR option being lined up to take over if required.
Would the DfT want another management contract seeing as the last one was GTR? Could go down very badly politically
 

matt_world2004

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Smells like VTEC again - Management contract option to continue VTEC was rejected in favour of the OLR option, and LNER was reborn.

So it could be that in light of the Williams review DfT don't want to let the franchise, have asked GoVia to put together a Management contract/Direct Award proposal but have the OLR option being lined up to take over if required.
A management contract would be politically unacceptable given the mess made by govia of GTR.
 

hwl

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Smells like VTEC again - Management contract option to continue VTEC was rejected in favour of the OLR option, and LNER was reborn.

So it could be that in light of the Williams review DfT don't want to let the franchise, have asked GoVia to put together a Management contract/Direct Award proposal but have the OLR option being lined up to take over if required.
Exactly the are doing the sensible logical thing and having another GoVia direct award as plan A and OLR as plan B.
 

hwl

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A management contract would be politically unacceptable given the mess made by govia of GTR.
Govia are already 4 direct awards (and 5 years) beyond the original end date into SouthEastern and no one grumbled at the last 3 month extension recently even after the Thameslink issues.

Lots of the GTR issues originated in "ostrich head in sand behaviours" in GMH more the 5 years before the problems hit. First and Govia as the incumbents warned DfT before the TSGN ITT even started about lots of issues some that needed the old franchsies funding to start sorting ASAP to prevent big issues later and DfT chose not to fund...
 
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ScotGG

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No one grumbled? MPs and passengers were not surprised but that doesn't mean happy at all.
 

HH

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Exactly the are doing the sensible logical thing and having another GoVia direct award as plan A and OLR as plan B.
That's my reading too. It's not certain (else wise why bother with OLR?), but a new DA now seems the likely outcome. It's all very strange, because a new franchise award seemed likely until quite recently.
 

3141

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If there is a Direct Award, the reason would presumably be either because the DfT has decided to wait for the Williams report, or because there were problems with all three bids; and it's been said on here that all of them were non-compliant in some way. If the main reason was the first one rather than the second, then that raises questions about what will happen about East Midlands and West Coast.
 

Helvellyn

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If there is a Direct Award, the reason would presumably be either because the DfT has decided to wait for the Williams report, or because there were problems with all three bids; and it's been said on here that all of them were non-compliant in some way. If the main reason was the first one rather than the second, then that raises questions about what will happen about East Midlands and West Coast.
EMT needs new stock for Corby after electrification. Another DA could be possible to deliver that and possibly the HST replacements.

West Coast is surely more complicated because I thought it was all tied up with HS2?
 

Failed Unit

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EMT needs new stock for Corby after electrification. Another DA could be possible to deliver that and possibly the HST replacements.

West Coast is surely more complicated because I thought it was all tied up with HS2?

Commented in the EMT franchise thread about this, I just hope that whatever heppens to these franchises both of them can move forward in terms of passenger improvement. Most of the recent DAs seem to be more of the same. Fine for SouthEastern but not for EMT that is looking in envy at the improvements the rest of the country is seeing while we continue with our 1992 timetable on the rural lines.
 

4-SUB 4732

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Telegraph reporting today that Southeastern's parents, Govia, are in line for a lucrative direct award.

Word on the ground is that the top brass for Govia were being extremely difficult with the DfT about this and demanding some decent money for doing it else they'd hand the keys back. Seems Grayling has caved in.
 

hwl

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Interesting that only the Telegraph are covering it at the moment (and it’s paywalled). Perhaps more will leak out tomorrow
Heavily caveated article but Oli (ex City-am) is a decent business journalist (Chartered Accountant by training) who takes a good side interest in railway matters and is a Southern commuter.
 

ComUtoR

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Quote taken from the Telegraph

Govia, the train company behind the under-fire Thameslink and Southern networks, is poised to net hundreds of millions of pounds if Transport Secretary Chris Grayling delays a key decision on the hugely profitable Southeastern franchise.

The Department for Transport is supposed to have picked and “mobilised” a new owner for Southeastern by June 22.

But experts say this changeover requires at least four months' notice, meaning a further delay is likely. As a result, Govia and joint venture partner Keolis could be granted a lucrative contract extension.

Mr Grayling’s department has dragged its heels on a decision about the new Southeastern operator after originally proposing to make a selection in August last year.

Govia and Keolis, the French state operator that is in charge of the Docklands Light Railway, are vying to retain the franchise in a bidding process with Stagecoach and Dutch firm Abellio.

Delays began when bidders were sent back to the drawing board to re-calculate pension contributions and the DfT announced the launch of the biggest review of the railways for decades.

Govia and Keolis have already been granted two extensions on Southeastern as Whitehall officials struggle to make their mind up over the winning bid.


The latest three-month extension to June has netted the Govia’s listed parent Go-Ahead £200m in extra revenue, analysts say.


“Mobilisation requires around four months and therefore, with less than four months to the start date, there is a possibility that the franchise is extended again,” wrote Investec’s Alex Paterson.

“Go-Ahead would benefit from a further extension for Southeastern,” he added.

Insiders suggested Govia was increasingly worried by the Government’s radio silence on Southeastern. With only weeks to go before Govia could have to hand over the reins, it is being forced into costly short-term arrangements with suppliers instead of agreeing more efficient medium and long-term deals.

Compared with its London-listed peers - Stagecoach, FirstGroup and National Express - Go-Ahead makes the largest proportion of its earnings from the railways. Of this, Southeastern is the largest contributor.

Go-Ahead has been subject to waves of criticism over the operation of Govia Thameslink, Britain’s biggest rail network, which includes Southern, Greater Northern and Thameslink. It was badly affected by a bungled timetable overhaul last May, has been fined millions of pounds and had profits capped by ministers.

Govia Thameslink accounts, released last week, revealed pre-tax profit had fallen to just £3.7m on more than £1bn of annual revenue. While no dividends were paid, £40m was separately handed out from its Southeastern and London Midland operations.


With key upgrades largely completed, such as the overhaul of London Bridge, and a deal with striking guards agreed, Govia Thameslink is increasingly optimistic about its future.

A spokesman said last week: "GTR performance is currently the best it’s been in the history of the franchise.”

A DfT spokesman said: "The current Southeastern franchise is expected to end June 22, and we haven’t taken a decision on this franchise."

Nothing concrete tbh
 

Jimstar

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Telegraph reporting today that Southeastern's parents, Govia, are in line for a lucrative direct award.

Word on the ground is that the top brass for Govia were being extremely difficult with the DfT about this and demanding some decent money for doing it else they'd hand the keys back. Seems Grayling has caved in.
Corresponds well with what was said about OLR being engaged and Govia 'beavering away.' Sounds like Govia have agreed to keep it temporarily but are extracting what they can from the DFT, only question is how long is this delay? I imagine it might include some provision for rolling stock rollout on a limited basis...
 

Metal_gee_man

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As a regular SE commuter I don't actually know what's for the best for both me and my fellow users, I see the flaws in what we currently have, and know that fixing them needs a new contract to be signed with requirements attached for anything to be done, because each of the problems needs money throwing at it!
I couldn't care less if it becomes state owned, Govia, Abellio or Stagecoach it just needs to happen soon
I/we all know that the 465/66s are life expired internally, they're hanging on mechanically but they need replacing (this won't happen with another 1 year direct award)
I certainly believe that the Metro services need a two fold revenue and safety plan that involves revenue protection staff on trains and barriers at stations (so manned stations) to effectively deter anti social users on these services in the first place but also to gain the revenue they are losing out on as Abbey Wood is proving.
I also see the problems with overcrowding on the javelins as the STP to STP services are filling the gaps on non HS lines to accommodate having longer 375s elsewhere on the network this is stopping the number 12 car trains that are now required to run on the FAV to STP - RAM to STP and AFK to STPs
All in all we need more rolling stock, we need better planning, and ULTIMATELY A LONG TERM SERVICE PROVIDER WHO'LL INVEST AND UPGRADE WHAT'S WRONG WITH SE RIGHT NOW!
 

hwl

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As a regular SE commuter I don't actually know what's for the best for both me and my fellow users, I see the flaws in what we currently have, and know that fixing them needs a new contract to be signed with requirements attached for anything to be done, because each of the problems needs money throwing at it!
I couldn't care less if it becomes state owned, Govia, Abellio or Stagecoach it just needs to happen soon
I/we all know that the 465/66s are life expired internally, they're hanging on mechanically but they need replacing (this won't happen with another 1 year direct award)
I certainly believe that the Metro services need a two fold revenue and safety plan that involves revenue protection staff on trains and barriers at stations (so manned stations) to effectively deter anti social users on these services in the first place but also to gain the revenue they are losing out on as Abbey Wood is proving.
I also see the problems with overcrowding on the javelins as the STP to STP services are filling the gaps on non HS lines to accommodate having longer 375s elsewhere on the network this is stopping the number 12 car trains that are now required to run on the FAV to STP - RAM to STP and AFK to STPs
All in all we need more rolling stock, we need better planning, and ULTIMATELY A LONG TERM SERVICE PROVIDER WHO'LL INVEST AND UPGRADE WHAT'S WRONG WITH SE RIGHT NOW!
GWR have signed up for quite a lot extra stock in a Direct Award but thern again DfT have agreed to fund it, East Coast as a operator of last resort got the IEP nod and SouthEastern got the 25x 377 agreement during a Direct Award so extra stock can happen if the Direct Award is long enough. THe big problem for extra stock is that is there isn't the depot/ stabling space for it hence any extra stock needs an extra big investment.

A few thoughts:
1. The tender was badly timed in that usage was still evolving post London Bridge Rebuild so some of the thinking on service levels and capacity will be off. With the delays to the tender this will now be obvious to the bidders where the differences are and they will protect themselves if they can.
2. Reality has now moved to far away from tender assumptions.
3. It won't be a short DA and then it will need to fit into a sensible schedule with other tenders for DfT too excuse will be wait for the Williams review.
4. In terms of increasing certainty and reducing options with new tender waiting till full implementation of Thameslink and Crossrail has happened, for the later it will take a longer time for usage patterns to shift according to TfL modelling so it could be a while for sensible "settled" data for new tender to appears.
5. There is a load of DfT explicitly specified stuff in the tender that can be itemised (and salami sliced) and done in a DA e.g. gating the stations (presumably packaged up in groups to price e.g. 4 Groups with the 1st group at the top of a list the cheap / easy to gate with higher passenger numbers, Dft would fund 2-3 of the groups and leave the too difficult/expesive /low BCR for the next new franchise) - Hence Govia "Beavering"
6. There is a load of DfT implicitly specified stuff in the tender that it was up to bidders to decide how to achieve the output e.g. new stabling but where and how much? Here DfT is likely look at what the bidders proposed and if there is a consistent theme e.g. all bidders proposed Y number of 12 car sidings in location X or similar and it is an easy build then they will think about those for the DA. Reducing the size of future new Franchisee's "to do list" helps de-risk it for everyone involved in the next tender (fewer item in the next tender and lower total risk), progress on extra depot might just be limited to sorting out compulsory purchase if most /all bidders had come up with the same idea. Don't expect much in this category though.
 

Mikey C

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The Networkers may be tired looking, but that's more from lack of TLC and uncertainty about their future than their age, as the bare minimum has been done to them. They're the same age/generation as the 165/6s which will be service for the next 20 years! Younger than the Southern 455s, and the 319s etc too

They're not suitable for the longer term needs of the franchise though even if a year or two delay wouldn't be a disaster.

The HS routes certainly could do with more stock now. Is stabling space further into Kent is more available?
 

hwl

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Is stabling space further into Kent is more available?
Not really see the Chart Leacon site compulsory purchase and bringing back into use for Ashford TL stabling reason...

The Networks will be harder (ie not cheap quick and easy) to modify to get rid of 3+2 seating + vestibule construction and door way width and suspension issues hence the reticence to attempt to do much.

As a extra (crazy???) thought on why the tender might be in bit of a mess:
If the 2 bidders teaming up the Hitachi mainly for the signalling equipment requirement were actually teaming up with a Hitachi /Bombardier JV that was offering to supply Aventra with ABDO (Automatic Braking and Door Opening) as per SWR 701s then the BCR and business case for some of the signalling improvements up front might diminish significantly creating a bit of an existential conundrum that DfT didn't anticipate. Unexpected Innovation outside the parameters of tender spec has lead to a fiar bit of leagal action lately in (UK) rail.
 
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We've been waiting so long now, the suspense is palpable. I can understand why the DfT might hold-off on an award with the ongoing review, but it's likely going to cost them. Do they keep agreeing to short quarterly extensions at increasing cost to the government and little benefit to the passengers? Or do they grant another two year Direct Award, long enough to allow this review to play out, request some realistic improvements and reset the tendering process with the review in mind?

There are a number of challenges that need to be faced in the near future - things like increasing the capacity of the High Speed fleet to meet demand, and finding a successor to the Networkers. The 465s may "only" be 25 years old, but they've been worked to the bone by South East London and they're showing their age quite a lot more than their 165 cousins. As we don't have the stabling space to supplement them, they will probably need newer units to take their place.
 

urpert

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Shug

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What are the chances that metro goes to TFL and Kent mainline transfers to GTR so that all those franchises can be sorted after the rail review at the same time?
 

hwl

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What are the chances that metro goes to TFL and Kent mainline transfers to GTR so that all those franchises can be sorted after the rail review at the same time?
A large cost to split as they are more inefficient separately so unlikely.
 

Jimstar

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What are the chances that metro goes to TFL and Kent mainline transfers to GTR so that all those franchises can be sorted after the rail review at the same time?
Incredibly unlikely. I think it is just coincidence in this case.
 
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