RMT membership

ValentaFan1974 · 4 Apr 2019

Hi all,

Can I just garner the interest of railway employees on this matter? In my previous job, there was a union (CWU) however I never felt I needed to belong to it - and in 25 years in my previous line of work I never would have needed them.

However, since joining the railway, membership of the RMT has been HEAVILY recommended. I’ve looked at their website and I am still undecided. I’d like to hear people from both sides of the fence on their opinions.... thank you

RailUK Forums

221129 · 4 Apr 2019

ValentaFan1974 said:
Hi all,

Can I just garner the interest of railway employees on this matter? In my previous job, there was a union (CWU) however I never felt I needed to belong to it - and in 25 years in my previous line of work I never would have needed them.

However, since joining the railway, membership of the RMT has been HEAVILY recommended. I’ve looked at their website and I am still undecided. I’d like to hear people from both sides of the fence on their opinions.... thank you

Absolutely worth joining. Your reps are pretty good too.

bionic · 5 Apr 2019

100% definitely worth joining a union. ASLEF for drivers, RMT for everything else. There are other "unions" like the TSSA but they have no clout whatsoever in the industry.

ValentaFan1974 · 5 Apr 2019

Thanks for the replies so far. I’ve come from an industry where it is very much “Do what you want” regarding union membership, so forgive me for being stupid.

221129 · 5 Apr 2019

ValentaFan1974 said:
Thanks for the replies so far. I’ve come from an industry where it is very much “Do what you want” regarding union membership, so forgive me for being stupid.

What are the reasons you're thinking about for not joining out of interest?

Mag_seven · 5 Apr 2019

bionic said:
There are other "unions" like the TSSA but they have no clout whatsoever in the industry.

As a former TSSA member for 26 years I find that a bit unfair. Yes as they represent "salaried staff" who it could be argued have less "bargaining power" than "manual" grades who can bring the network to a halt, the TSSA have secured pay rises and prevented job losses for lots of their members over the years. I for one was glad of their assistance in a couple of issues I had in my railway career.

ValentaFan1974 · 5 Apr 2019

221129 said:
What are the reasons you're thinking about for not joining out of interest?

Don’t get me wrong - I have thought about joining, but I’ve come from an industry that was very much “meh” about it. I can see that it is very much promoted in the railway and forgive me if I’m being stupid in my reasoning, but in my old job you only became a member of the union if you feared for your job (mainly due to incompetence). Now, I’m not saying that is the case for the railway. Far from it, I’ve seen safety as paramount in all my journeys.

I know I’ve jumped from one culture to another so again forgive me for any naivety in this. I’m just looking for opinion. Anyone who isn’t a member maybe? Anyone who’s needed their services maybe?

221129 · 5 Apr 2019

ValentaFan1974 said:
Don’t get me wrong - I have thought about joining, but I’ve come from an industry that was very much “meh” about it. I can see that it is very much promoted in the railway and forgive me if I’m being stupid in my reasoning, but in my old job you only became a member of the union if you feared for your job (mainly due to incompetence). Now, I’m not saying that is the case for the railway. Far from it, I’ve seen safety as paramount in all my journeys.

I know I’ve jumped from one culture to another so again forgive me for any naivety in this. I’m just looking for opinion. Anyone who isn’t a member maybe? Anyone who’s needed their services maybe?

That's understandable. As I see it, you'd be mad not to join. The local reps (elected by you) are directly responsible for a lot of day to day things. (Annual leave, rosters, maximum turn length etc) and on a national level they negotiate pay talks, terms and conditions etc.

LAX54 · 5 Apr 2019

and ..pay rises aside, if you have an incident at work, be it your fault, or someone saying its your fault etc, the Union will be there to represent you.

AntoniC · 5 Apr 2019

I am Civil Servant and joined my union on day1 30 years ago.
I have needed their help 3 times including an allegation that could have cost me my job - like others I recommend joining a Union , as you never know when you may need help.

6Z09 · 5 Apr 2019

Essential protection should things go wrong.
More so now than ever in the blame culture industry it has now become.

oz220 · 5 Apr 2019

ValentaFan1974 said:
Hi all,

Can I just garner the interest of railway employees on this matter? In my previous job, there was a union (CWU) however I never felt I needed to belong to it - and in 25 years in my previous line of work I never would have needed them.

However, since joining the railway, membership of the RMT has been HEAVILY recommended. I’ve looked at their website and I am still undecided. I’d like to hear people from both sides of the fence on their opinions.... thank you

I was in the same position as you. Came from an industry where hardly anyone was in a union and even the ones that were had little protection or any decent representation.
Like has already been stated, the unions can do a lot of good work such as pay talks and they have also put out a lot of useful information and are in regular contact with management. On the other hand I've also seen them be slightly pendatic in some situations imo.
But most importantly I've seen them be an excellent resource to have when either something does go wrong or you are wrongly accused of something. It's nice to know your union will support you.
We all hope that we never use our union reps. However they do protect the work force and actively try and improve your t&c's. For those reasons I felt it best to be a member of a union.

LCC106 · 5 Apr 2019

I was sceptical about unions before joining the railway. As has been said, they are there to represent you should you be involved in an incident that was or wasn’t your fault. If you have an incident THEN join the union after you will probably find that they won’t represent you as you weren’t member at the time. Expensive insurance policy but my local union guys helped me out once and were great.

EssexGonzo · 5 Apr 2019

I've never worked on the railways but was in a union in the financial services industry for 29 years. The union was toothless and no help on the single occasion I needed them in all that time. I won't be bothering again. Which is a shame - I believe in the union model and believe that the collective contribution of the many should be used to support the relatively few that (hopefully) need the union in their working lifetime.

However, my perspective on the railway (as a bystander, I don't work there) is that there is a higher risk of things going wrong and that a driver in particular has a pressured role working alone much of the time. In addition, the railways are often used as a political football with the potential for changes to be implemented as a result of a political whim, either directly or indirectly, with little consideration or thought for staff.

So, from an outsider, it looks like a no-brainer - join!

LCC106 · 5 Apr 2019

Essexgonzo, this! Balanced perspective from an outsider.

Mutant Lemming · 5 Apr 2019

In the case of ASLEF some legal services extend beyond the workplace in certain circumstances (as per below from the ASLEF site)

The legal services provided to ASLEF members include:

Work-related accidents and diseases
Non work-related accidents and diseases
Employment disputes
Family law
Benefits and consumer advice
Criminal law
Property and conveyancing
Wills

Bridger · 5 Apr 2019

ValentaFan1974 said:
Hi all,

Can I just garner the interest of railway employees on this matter? In my previous job, there was a union (CWU) however I never felt I needed to belong to it - and in 25 years in my previous line of work I never would have needed them.

However, since joining the railway, membership of the RMT has been HEAVILY recommended. I’ve looked at their website and I am still undecided. I’d like to hear people from both sides of the fence on their opinions.... thank you

Proud RMT member here!

I had literally no knowledge of unions before joining the railway. I too was strongly advised to sign up, and very glad I did. Not only have i had union representation at an attendance hearing (which went in my favour), without the union my grade (guards) would of all been forced to sign up to new contracts de-skilling our role. Yes strikes can be a pain (for the public and also union members), but without the threat of organised industrial action, the railway wouldn't enjoy the pay, shorter work week and terms and conditions that we see today.

Would highly recommend signing up!

Highlandspring · 5 Apr 2019

Mutant Lemming said:
In the case of ASLEF some legal services extend beyond the workplace in certain circumstances (as per below from the ASLEF site)

The RMT provides similar services including a credit union. The RMT gets a bad press generally but my experience of the union at a local level has been almost entirely positive. The railway is still a heavily unionised industry; the unions have a lot of influence over pay and conditions as well as providing excellent representation when needed and I think you’d have to be mad not to be a member of one of them. The corollary is that you must be prepared to take industrial action including withdrawal of labour when a majority of the union membership deems it necessary. The strength of the union is in its members.

DarloRich · 5 Apr 2019

bionic said:
There are other "unions" like the TSSA but they have no clout whatsoever in the industry.

That is an inaccurate statement. RMT have no "clout" in vast sections of the rail industry. The RMT have no "clout" to sort out issues for the people TSSA represent! TSSA also ( at least until recently) took a less aggressive and less militant tone than the RMT. CLEARLY the TSSA have no "clout" in relation to drivers or guards as they do not have representation rights but they are very good at dealing with issues for the people they do represent.

Mag_seven said:
As a former TSSA member for 26 years I find that a bit unfair. Yes as they represent "salaried staff" who it could be argued have less "bargaining power" than "manual" grades who can bring the network to a halt, the TSSA have secured pay rises and prevented job losses for lots of their members over the years. I for one was glad of their assistance in a couple of issues I had in my railway career.

Agreed.

Mutant Lemming said:
In the case of ASLEF some legal services extend beyond the workplace in certain circumstances (as per below from the ASLEF site)

The legal services provided to ASLEF members include:

Work-related accidents and diseases

Non work-related accidents and diseases

Employment disputes

Family law

Benefits and consumer advice

Criminal law

Property and conveyancing

Wills

most unions offer similar services, often through Thompsons

OxtedSignaller · 5 Apr 2019

End of the day for the majority of grades and companies the RMT are the ones who negotiate your pay and one day may be the ones who save your job if you get into a sticky situation. They also provide death and accident benefits if ever you or your family may need it. In this day and age you would be mad not to join in my opinion, just look at the difference in non unionized industry.

185 · 5 Apr 2019

ValentaFan1974 said:
I’d like to hear people from both sides of the fence on their opinions.... thank you

I would advise joining primarily as an insurance policy for your job security. Having seen multiple court cases lost by railway employers where a judge has said they acted wrongly or illegally, regardless of how popular anyone thinks they are, they should join. It was, surprisingly my first ever guards manager who told me to join the RMT, he even produced his membership card saying "Even a big idiot like me is in" - he was one of the most respected bosses I've known of on the railway. Quite interestingly, we were all TUPEd to another firm three years later... for whatever reason they didn't like him, and sacked him citing "falsifications & discrepancies in Conductor Assessments". On the day of his employment tribunal it was cancelled, we guessed he'd either bottled it, or the company had settled. He stopped openly discussing the case but was spotted in a brand new car days later. Four months down the line I bumped trolleys in Asda with him, and he said, "you know I can't talk about it, but at least I haven't got a mortgage no more"

Forget about Solidarity with Cuba, justice for (insert cause/animal here), pay negotiations & disputes and some of the RMT's more questionable campaigns, in my opinion this is a long term investment for your job security.

Highlandspring · 5 Apr 2019

185 said:
Forget about Solidarity with Cuba, justice for (insert cause/animal here), pay negotiations & disputes and some of the RMT's more questionable campaigns, in my opinion this is a long term investment for your job security.

The other thing that’s worth mentioning is that although by default part of your RMT subscription goes towards their political fund you can, if you wish, instruct them to stop it and they must honour that.

train_lover · 5 Apr 2019

I have to question the decisions of top brass at both Aslef and RMT. The local reps tend to be nothing short of brilliant. If you are on the railway regardless of grade you absolutely should join a union. The question is which one is for you...

ValentaFan1974 · 5 Apr 2019

Highlandspring said:
The corollary is that you must be prepared to take industrial action including withdrawal of labour when a majority of the union membership deems it necessary.

This is the bit that concerns me. I assume if you strike you lose 100% of your pay for the time you’re picketing? Do the RMT help with this? Do people break the picket and work? If they do, what happens to them?

ComUtoR · 5 Apr 2019

ValentaFan1974 said:
This is the bit that concerns me. I assume if you strike you lose 100% of your pay for the time you’re picketing? Do the RMT help with this? Do people break the picket and work? If they do, what happens to them?

If you don't turn up for work then expect not to get paid. Don't forget that if you are not booked to work on the day of the strike then you don't lose any wages.
People do break the picket line. It always ends badly and causes lots of friction between colleagues.

If you aren't prepared to strike then personally I don't think a Union is the place. The strength of the Union really does lie with it's members where everyone sticks together with a unified voice. If you lost your job and the Union decided to take a strike to get your job back, I assume you would want the support of every member. If a loss of a few days pay gets you a bigger wage rise or protects your conditions then surely its worth it ? Yes, there have been a few well documented strikes recently but they believed it was worth it. The relative success is debatable.

Highlandspring · 5 Apr 2019

ValentaFan1974 said:
This is the bit that concerns me. I assume if you strike you lose 100% of your pay for the time you’re picketing? Do the RMT help with this? Do people break the picket and work? If they do, what happens to them?

1) Correct, you are not paid if you don’t sign on for duty when you’re rostered to work
2) Not unless the dispute drags on for a long time
3) Sometimes, but that is a matter for each individual’s conscience
4) Nothing will ‘happen’ to you in a sinister sense, however previous friends and colleagues may reappraise how they feel about you in light of your actions.

If you’re not prepared to strike when necessary then don’t join the union. I have been out three times in 15 years as an RMT member, losing pay each time. It was unfortunate that it came to industrial action but each time, in my opinion, it was justified and won the result that the union membership were looking for. I don’t have any problem with someone who isn’t a member of a union, or is an unaffected grade working through an industrial dispute but in my eyes it is morally reprehensible for a union member to cross a picket line and continue to work if your fellow members are withholding their labour. The generally favourable terms and conditions we enjoy in the rail industry are a direct result of the actions of the unions over many, many years. If you want to enjoy the benefits the union wins then you need to be prepared to fight for them. As I said in a post above, the strength of the union is in its members. If the unions lose strength then as an industry we’ll be heading for a very unpleasant future. Zero hour contracts, anyone..?

ValentaFan1974 · 5 Apr 2019

Thank you all for your input in this thread. It is very much appreciated.

Highlandspring - can I ask how long you were out for on your three pickets?

Highlandspring · 5 Apr 2019

The way it worked was that the union declared that the affected members should not report for duty for any shifts starting between 0600 on one day and 0600 the next day. From memory the first strike action I was involved with lasted about three weeks and the others were a couple of weeks longer. I personally missed out on three 12 hour shifts during the first dispute and two 12 hour shifts each for the other two disputes. On each occasion I was unlucky in getting hit so often as most of my colleagues were only affected once (indeed the dates were chosen so that would be the case). For one of the actions some of my colleagues left the union when it looked like a strike was inevitable and rejoined afterwards...

Journeyman · 5 Apr 2019

I've been in roles where I had the choice of joining either RMT or TSSA. This was back in the days when Bob Crow was in charge. I found that as a political moderate, I could not agree with the RMT's position on things with a clear conscience, and chose to join the TSSA instead. I never had much need for their services, but I did appreciate the support that was available, should it ever have become necessary to use it.

It should be noted that TSSA is probably a bit more radical and willing to strike now, than it was 10 to 15 years ago when I was in it, but it tends to be a rather less political and more pragmatic union.

Under Mick Cash, I think the RMT are far too willing to down tools over trivial and unnecessary things, and I dread to think how much money members at Southern have lost, along with all the other TOCs that got caught up in DOO disputes. I think the RMT have been dishonest, unreasonable and exploitative in the way they've handled these disputes, leaving members hugely out of pocket for no good reason, and until they get a better leader, I wouldn't want anything to do with them.

I know a lot of people won't like that opinion, but I've seen a lot of how they work, and I make no apologies for it.

train_lover · 5 Apr 2019

You must remember that nobody wants to strike. There seems to be this idea in the press that we love to strike. Bottom line is I have bills to pay as do everyone. Strike action is a last resort and I wouldn't worry about it personally.

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