Derby - Llandudno

Hello there,

I'm doing this journey over the bank holiday weekend, is this route valid via Tamworth? I'm just exploring evening options...

The National Rail Website allows...

19:34 Llandudno - Crewe
21:07 Crewe- Tamworth
22:27 Tamworth - Derby

...but it rejects a lot of other journeys changing at Tamworth?

My knowledge of the routeing guide is non existence, but the 'yellow pages' suggests NJ is a permitted route (which to me means via Tamworth?)

Thank you!

Perfectly valid as far i can see, even Transport for Wales website will offer the 1934 with 2 changes at Crewe and Tamworth.

Thank you!

When I tried Derby - Lllandudno changing at Tamworth, the national rail website threw up 'Multiple Tickets Required for Journey' and wanted me to purchase separate tickets off peak tickets at various prices totally around £60. That made me think the route wasn't valid.

Flicka said:

Thank you!

When I tried Derby - Lllandudno changing at Tamworth, the national rail website threw up 'Multiple Tickets Required for Journey' and wanted me to purchase separate tickets off peak tickets at various prices totally around £60. That made me think the route wasn't valid.

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That doesn't surprise me but it's a typical example of how needlessly restrictive Routeing Guide maps (such as NJ) can cause problems. The issue here is that the service from Tamworth to Crewe has to be justified route-wise by using a Routeing Guide map - as you aren't taking a through train from Derby to Llandudno and via Tamworth isn't the shortest route (even though it's perfectly reasonable). The reason the service to Crewe isn't on map NJ is that this is the WMT service that goes via Stoke-on-Trent. Map NJ only has the direct link between Stafford and Crewe, not via Stoke-on-Trent.

This is an entirely needless omission (possibly just an oversight) that prevents this, and no doubt many other routes which rely on NJ, from being permitted by journey planners. In theory you're supposed to change at Stafford for the direct WMT service that goes non-stop to Crewe . But I can't imagine even the strictest guard out there having any issue with you going via the Stoke 'wobble', so even if it's not strictly speaking permitted it is the kind of route that is so obviously reasonable that no-one is ever really going to question it.

Thank you so much for that explanation, that makes complete sense!

I try to use the maps on and 'yellow pages' on the rail delivery group website so see what is and isn't valid, however the national rail website can sometimes conflict with this information, which makes me question my understanding of the maps and permitted routes.

Flicka said:

Thank you so much for that explanation, that makes complete sense!

I try to use the maps on and 'yellow pages' on the rail delivery group website so see what is and isn't valid, however the national rail website can sometimes conflict with this information, which makes me question my understanding of the maps and permitted routes.

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It's certainly all very confusing, but the good news is that you can rely on whichever of all the 'rules of validity' is most favourable for you - be that a permitted route that isn't properly implemented in journey planners, or a journey planner that offers a non-permitted route.

Flicka said:

I try to use the maps on and 'yellow pages' on the rail delivery group website so see what is and isn't valid, however the national rail website can sometimes conflict with this information, which makes me question my understanding of the maps and permitted routes.

Click to expand...

Journey planners, of various sorts, quite often fail to offer a route permitted by the Routeing Guide (RG) maps (or easements) or, alternatively, offer a route which is not permitted by use of the RG maps (or easements). Rail Development Group like to claim this is due to 'obsolete regulation requirements' when it is usually a result of them increasing the number of RG maps exponentially since privatisation.

The good news is that routes permitted by the RG are always valid, regardless of what a journey planner might suggest. The RG is also clear that "Any ticket indicated for use in conjunction with a particular journey when using the Journey Planner will automatically be valid for the route and service indicated", which covers the second situation in my opening sentence.

Yes it is valid via Tamworth, but only if you travel directly between Stafford & Crewe on a non-stop train avoiding Stoke-on-Trent.

It is not valid via Stoke-on-Trent, however it is reasonable via SOT. In practice no-one is likely to pull you up for it, as it would be crazy for them to do so.

If they did, I suppose you could invoke the 'disputed route procedure'