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Caledonian Sleeper

modernrail

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I have never taken a sleeper train in the UK. Based on this review I don't think I'll ever bother. Some of these issues seem easy enough to sort out and therefore simple enough to not be allowed to occur in the first place.

At least if you down the more traditional route of flying or using a non sleeper train and staying in a regular hotel the n you wouldn't encounter many of these annoyances.
I am not sure flying is more traditional! I mean, it isn't. Just as having cars on the roads is not more traditional than having bikes. Bikes came first.

I do agree though that these are more than niggles that mean that the hotel on wheels claim is simply not true and more frustratingly, they could have been avoided fairly easily from what J can see. I sleep like a log on the Swedish sleepers and they are older by a fair margin and cost quite a lot less.
 
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Bletchleyite

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I must admit that lights in the cabin would put me off. I would be taking masking tape to put over the top. I want it dark for me to sleep - properly dark.

If there has to be a nightlight, it should be red, as that colour promotes sleep - absolutely not blue or white.
 

Bald Rick

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Down Edinburgh late again. Same problems?

Hope they sort this out quickly, I’m on it in a few weeks, and can’t afford to be late!
 

3rd rail land

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I am not sure flying is more traditional! I mean, it isn't. Just as having cars on the roads is not more traditional than having bikes. Bikes came first.

I do agree though that these are more than niggles that mean that the hotel on wheels claim is simply not true and more frustratingly, they could have been avoided fairly easily from what J can see. I sleep like a log on the Swedish sleepers and they are older by a fair margin and cost quite a lot less.
Fair enough regarding your first point. However if you book well a flight well in advance and a cheap hotel like a Premier Inn then it would work out much cheaper than the sleeper and not have those annoyances.
 

Sleeperwaking

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Fair enough regarding your first point. However if you book well a flight well in advance and a cheap hotel like a Premier Inn then it would work out much cheaper than the sleeper and not have those annoyances.
It really depends on your personal situation (what you want to do, where you're travelling from / to, how easily you get disturbed when sleeping). We wanted to do a cycling holiday around Aviemore, and it worked out really well taking the sleeper - the bikes could travel with us for free (flying would mean cycle hire fees), we saved about 16 hours worth of driving / effectively got 2 extra days in Aviemore, and could tie in visits to the in-laws near London at the start / end of the trip. It was still a bit pricey even with the two together discount, but much preferable to driving all the way. Also, both of us fall asleep easily / stay asleep, so some of the niggles identified by modern rail wouldn't be an issue (at the new prices we probably wouldn't fork out the extra to get an en-suite, so the shower problems would completely pass us by!).
 

alistairlees

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I have never taken a sleeper train in the UK. Based on this review I don't think I'll ever bother. Some of these issues seem easy enough to sort out and therefore simple enough to not be allowed to occur in the first place.

At least if you go down the more traditional route of flying or using a non sleeper train and staying in a regular hotel the n you wouldn't encounter many of these annoyances.
You are comparing new train with old train / plane. You should compare like with like. People flying on a certain new plane recently will have been a lot more than annoyed for example.
 

theironroad

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Well I'll reserve judgement until I've tried it, but some of these reviews are pretty depressing....
 

trebor79

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Likewise, travelling in a few weeks. For me it's a practical and time saving way to return from Glasgow (and cost neutral compared to an additional night in a hotel and flight).
Not expecting a hotel on wheels, I tend to ignore marketing stuff like that.
I won't be sitting up in the lounge car all night, the Lowlander leaves precious little time for sleep as it is, but would partake of breakfast in there if possible.
A lot of these issues such as slow service and lack of stock sound like teething problems to me.
A little bit of light in the cabin is ok, you need to be able to find the bog in the middle of the night!
Alarms going off and water sloshing into the bedroom doesn't sound great though, as more permanent than teething problems.
 

modernrail

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Likewise, travelling in a few weeks. For me it's a practical and time saving way to return from Glasgow (and cost neutral compared to an additional night in a hotel and flight).
Not expecting a hotel on wheels, I tend to ignore marketing stuff like that.
I won't be sitting up in the lounge car all night, the Lowlander leaves precious little time for sleep as it is, but would partake of breakfast in there if possible.
A lot of these issues such as slow service and lack of stock sound like teething problems to me.
A little bit of light in the cabin is ok, you need to be able to find the bog in the middle of the night!
Alarms going off and water sloshing into the bedroom doesn't sound great though, as more permanent than teething problems.
I am not saying I won't use it again, I very much will. It is just very frustrating when obvious things are missed. However, it was the combo of bed size, no real improvement in the movement of the train and cabin temperature that were most annoying. Does anybody know the dimensions of the new bed compared to the old?

There were relatively short periods of quite smooth running. Wanting to be fair to the train engineers, is this a case of the track rather than the train? In Sweden they seem to avoid this switching track, stopping in sidings stuff that I perceive the lowlander sleeper does (but might be wrong).

The lights are just silly. The one in the bogging area is 100 per cent unnecessary. The white light in the cabin could be a different colour and a lot less bright.

Anyway, I will be interested to see what others think after giving it a go. Maybe I am being a bit too grumpy. A lack of sleep can do that to you.
 

trebor79

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Ah if the lights are bright then that's a different matter.
Also I can't sleep in hot rooms. First thing I do on a Mk3 sleeper is whack the temperature control as far cold as it will go. If the cabin is too hot then it'll be a big problem for me.
I'm not expecting a lot from the shower TBH.
 

cb a1

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9 Mar 2015
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I was on the northbound lowlander on Tuesday night. Standard class bunk bed room (solo occupancy).

I wasn't able to get the temperature down quite as low as on the Mk3, but it was cool enough for me (and I hate sleeping in hot rooms).
Wasn't able to discern any difference in the width or length of the bed.
Wasn't able to discern any difference in the width of the corridor in the coach.
Lighting was dark enough.
Slept like a log (although I'd had three pints earlier in the evening).
Woke at Carstairs because it was so so quiet.
Didn't bother with breakfast (cheaper and nicer breakfasts in cafes in Glasgow) or shower (showers at work if I really wanted one) so can't comment on those.
I don't remember using the toilet? Certainly didn't have one en-suite anyway.

All in all, hardly any problems with the train. My grumbles are more about the booking in service at the head of the train (long queues) and that not a single steward spoke to me at any time after checking in.
 

Grandnat

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I was on the northbound lowlander on Tuesday night. Standard class bunk bed room (solo occupancy).

I wasn't able to get the temperature down quite as low as on the Mk3, but it was cool enough for me (and I hate sleeping in hot rooms).
Wasn't able to discern any difference in the width or length of the bed.
Wasn't able to discern any difference in the width of the corridor in the coach.
Lighting was dark enough.
Slept like a log (although I'd had three pints earlier in the evening).
Woke at Carstairs because it was so so quiet.
Didn't bother with breakfast (cheaper and nicer breakfasts in cafes in Glasgow) or shower (showers at work if I really wanted one) so can't comment on those.
I don't remember using the toilet? Certainly didn't have one en-suite anyway.

All in all, hardly any problems with the train. My grumbles are more about the booking in service at the head of the train (long queues) and that not a single steward spoke to me at any time after checking in.

Are they not making up the rooms depending upon whether booked for single occupancy or not? So stowing away the top bunk when booked for solo?

I noticed the man in seat 61 was in a Club Room on his own but the top bunk was down. If I’d book a solo room I’d be a bit annoyed if the top bunk was down.
 
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I was on the northbound lowlander on Tuesday night. Standard class bunk bed room (solo occupancy).

I wasn't able to get the temperature down quite as low as on the Mk3, but it was cool enough for me (and I hate sleeping in hot rooms).
Wasn't able to discern any difference in the width or length of the bed.
Wasn't able to discern any difference in the width of the corridor in the coach.
Lighting was dark enough.
Slept like a log (although I'd had three pints earlier in the evening).
Woke at Carstairs because it was so so quiet.
Didn't bother with breakfast (cheaper and nicer breakfasts in cafes in Glasgow) or shower (showers at work if I really wanted one) so can't comment on those.
I don't remember using the toilet? Certainly didn't have one en-suite anyway.

All in all, hardly any problems with the train. My grumbles are more about the booking in service at the head of the train (long queues) and that not a single steward spoke to me at any time after checking in.

It sounds as though the stewards may have been busy dealing with folk who didn't have an agreeable an evening as you.
 

cb a1

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Are they not making up the rooms depending upon whether booked for single occupancy or not? So stowing away the top bunk when booked for solo?

I noticed the man in seat 61 was in a Club Room on his own but the top bunk was down. If I’d book a solo room I’d be a bit annoyed if the top bunk was down.
As I walked along the platform at Central, I did look in some of the rooms. My coach and another seemed to have all the bunk beds down. Another coach all the top bunks were stowed away.

I assumed it was like the old standard / first class on the Mk3's and then there were the double rooms and en-suite rooms as another class over and above the old first class rooms?
 

cb a1

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It sounds as though the stewards may have been busy dealing with folk who didn't have an agreeable an evening as you.
Quite possibly but I was comparing the situation to that of before Serco took over where someone always checked in on you.

Whilst I'm pretty relaxed about using the Sleeper (been using it for a decade now), the staff wouldn't have known that. I could have been too shy / too embarrassed to go and ask them about how things work.
 

47271

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I ran your comments by a colleague, a CS regular who is very experienced on the mk3s but by no means an apologist for Serco, and who travelled on the Lowlander earlier this week. He made the following observations. He sees truth in everything you've said but is a lot less strong on the negatives and also sees a lot of positives.

My review of the service, Euston to Glasgow on Wednesday night.
1. Messaged to ask whether the train would definitely be available to board at 10pm. Was assured it would be. It wasn't. Boarded at 11pm. Really annoying.
They're having masses of teething technical problems so I understand that they've no more idea of when the train's ready to board than you have. It's very frustrating, but they're not doing it because they're slack.
2. Euston really is a dreadful little hole. Not the sleepers' fault but how amazing it would be if they could find a way to run it out of St Pancras. However, it is the sleepers' fault it they advertise and make a song and dance about 10pm boarding and can't deliver it.
Euston is a building site now, which doesn't help. Use the Virgin lounge, but obviously this is little use if boarding is so late that it's shut. Comments as above on 10pm boarding.

3. My restaurant didn't have quite a lot of the alcohol selection. Need to sort their ordering and logistics out.
Agree that this is annoying but could just as easily have happened on the old stock.

4. The service was painfully slow in the restaurant with passengers getting really annoyed. One polite guy must have put his hand up 50 times to no avail. They need to change how the staff run the service.
Your crew were probably working the lounge and kitchen for the very first time other than when they were trained. Sure get annoyed about this if it's still the case in six months, but not on day four.
5. The train in general looks nice inside. Those corridors do feel even narrower though.
The corridors are narrower. It allows the beds to be longer.
6. The cabins are full of errors as follows.
7. The width of the beds feels smaller than the old stock. There is plenty of floor space, they could have had quite a bit of a wider bed. Massive error and really affected ability to get the sleep.
Beds are an inch longer and, apparently, slightly wider, although he agrees that they look narrower. He disagrees that there's too much floor space considering the suitcase palaver caused by there being no overhead racks.
8. The cabin was far too hot. I had it on the lowest setting and had to take the duvet out of the cover and was still far too hot. In contrast the corridors were freezing. Lord knows how they have managed to achieve that screw up.
Looks like a localised fault, he had complete control of cabin temp.
9. The shower bracket is in the wrong place. It is over the toilet so you have to pick it out of the bracket and hold it over yourself. Unforgivable as a basic design error.
Agreed. This needs to be fixed. He thought it was a one off in his cabin until reading your report. It looks like they were maybe tested with higher water pressure than the onboard pump is capable of. Somebody needs to get their screwdriver out.
10. Shower pressure was poor and the water was cold. I use much older sleeper stock in Sweden and the shower is great.
Pressure is adequate, no more than that, but equally you don't want to drain the tanks. No problems with temperature.
11. If train is on some camber, water doesn't drain. I spotted it just before it flooded the main cabin. That is going to happen. Drain plug in wrong place, door lip not big enough and floor wrong shape to allow for draining. Get ready for smelly musty carpets.
The lip is low and yes this could become a problem. Wet carpet risk isn't helped by there being no bath mat, he used a hand towel but it isn't everyone who'd go to the bother of doing this.
12. No hangers or shelves in the room. Why??? Really stupid.
Doesn't know why, and there is a lack of storage space for larger items generally, I've heard that safety regs prevented overhead luggage racks and the sink is uncovered because unfamiliar users didn't realise it was there in the mk3s. I see that there's been comment about the hangers elsewhere.
13. The lighting consoles seem to me big and unnecessarily intrusive. Can't believe there wasn't a better design option.
Dunno - is it because faulty units can be swapped out easily? Agrees that they're a bit Soviet era chunky in their aesthetic.
14. This one is a classic. Somebody has decided people need room service. There is an intercom button next to a light switch. Most people including me seemed to hit it by accident. It is noisy in your cabin and you can't cancel it. It is noisy in the stewards room at the end of the cabin. The guy in the end cabin didn't get any sleep because of the noise. You don't need room service in the evening on the sleeper. If you really want to provide it just use paper and pen or smartpads in the restaurant. It is also going to drive the staff mad. Really stupid and my favourite for feature that will be switched off in 2 months. The mind boggles as to how they didn't see that one coming.
Didn't look at or think about the intercom. The blue attendant button in the mk3s was in an equally accident prone position. They could be converted to telephone handsets if they get too annoying I suppose.
15. It doesn't feel much quieter than the old train. A bit perhaps.
The mk3 sleeper is a masterpiece of smooth quiet running at speed amidships and arguably has never been bettered by any UK train type. Gangway noise and lateral jerking din at mk3 coach ends is a disaster however and he thinks that the combination of Dellners and silent gangways has transformed this aspect on the mk5s. No rattling doors and other knackered fittings loosened from their fixings.
16. Now the really big one. I didn't sleep. You feel every bit of poor track, the movements are all jerky so no rythmn. I might even say it is worse that the old train although it doesn't have bit where the carriages pulling up the slack from a standing start at least. They need to keep it on the smoother fasts at all costs. Really disappointing they have not got this right.
He says ride and vibration feels similar to a 385, which is hardly a ringing endorsement. It isn't soaking up the bumps like mk3 air suspension does, so probably slightly inferior. Slept fine however.
17. There is a pointless light beneath the toilet that you don't seem to be able to switch off, is really bright and lights up the door frame like a Christmas tree. Really stupid. I don't need illuminated items at thigh level in the bogging area.
Thinks this might be to cast a shadow at the door lip so you don't trip over it, but that's just a theory.
18. They seem to have a night light in white around one of the switches that you can't turn off. It is really white and annoying. Is it a safety requirement to have a night light you can't switch off in a sleeper cabin?
The light cast is very dim and you need to be able to see the light switch to turn it on. Not bothered by this.

Basically it is abundantly clear that they didn't get anybody to sleep in and use a mock up before spending millions on these trains. I love sleepers but this could have been so much better. They should have focussed less on the hotel on wheels guff and more on reducing annoyances to the minimum.
There are things that could be better but a lot of them are teething problems or can be easily fixed. However, if cabin noise and vibration is only better than a mk3 in certain ways and not others, and it's more susceptible to poor track, then that is disappointing and not easily fixed. On the other hand a mk5 lounge is light years ahead of a rickety clasp braked mk2 with the ambience of an eighties nightclub.

He adds that the big step forward for him is that the whole thing is very smart and no longer a dilapidated swirly carpeted boghole, and that is what 99% of passengers will think about.
 
Last edited:

vlad

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4. The service was painfully slow in the restaurant with passengers getting really annoyed. One polite guy must have put his hand up 50 times to no avail. They need to change how the staff run the service.
From personal experience that's normal.
(Every time I travel out of London on the sleeper the lounge is always rammed. People tell me that that's unusual but I'm beginning to think they're lying.)

14. This one is a classic. Somebody has decided people need room service.
There's a "call steward" button on the old stock. I've never used it but one of the staff on the Night Riviera told me to press it if I didn't want to walk to the lounge.
 

Muzer

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Most of it seemed like teething problems to me, that can easily be fixed. I agree with @modernrail about the stupidly bright light on the console; I will be bringing black electrical tape next time. Nothing else really seriously bothered me though. Certainly the ride felt like about the smoothest I've ever had on a sleeper anywhere - I was out like a light after Edinburgh and didn't wake up until Peterborough (when the sunlight coming through the window was bright enough to wake me up anyway). Would recommend, generally. Moaners like @3rd rail land are clearly deluded if they think the experience on the first week of service is going to be anything like what they hope it would be - everything has teething problems; always has done, always will do. I mean if you're happy to fly on a new plane that might crash because of teething problems, I don't think you should really be worried about a couple of misplaced lights and staff who are getting used to their new working environment.

The best part of the Mk 5s was none of that annoying metallic thrumming noise you got off the Mk 3 bogies when stationary!
 

3rd rail land

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Most of it seemed like teething problems to me, that can easily be fixed. I agree with @modernrail about the stupidly bright light on the console; I will be bringing black electrical tape next time. Nothing else really seriously bothered me though. Certainly the ride felt like about the smoothest I've ever had on a sleeper anywhere - I was out like a light after Edinburgh and didn't wake up until Peterborough (when the sunlight coming through the window was bright enough to wake me up anyway). Would recommend, generally. Moaners like @3rd rail land are clearly deluded if they think the experience on the first week of service is going to be anything like what they hope it would be - everything has teething problems; always has done, always will do. I mean if you're happy to fly on a new plane that might crash because of teething problems, I don't think you should really be worried about a couple of misplaced lights and staff who are getting used to their new working environment.

The best part of the Mk 5s was none of that annoying metallic thrumming noise you got off the Mk 3 bogies when stationary!
I realise there will be a small number of issues at the beginning but this is a lot of issues, especially when you consider the prices charged.

I will give them the credit they are due if they sort out these issues.
 

Butts

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I realise there will be a small number of issues at the beginning but this is a lot of issues, especially when you consider the prices charged.

I will give them the credit they are due if they sort out these issues.

Is there delay repay on The Caledonian Sleeper ?
 

47271

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Is there delay repay on The Caledonian Sleeper ?
30-59 mins 50% refund, 60+ 100% refund.

More generally on prices, I had to pay £148 for a Manchester-Euston single ADVANCE - it was the absolute cheapest I could buy at the time to safely get me in for NOON - this week to travel on the 0855 out of Piccadilly, arriving into Euston well after 11am. This strikes me as far worse value than anything the sleeper comes up with. Funnily enough there was about eight other people in my coach.
 

modernrail

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I ran your comments by a colleague, a CS regular who is very experienced on the mk3s but by no means an apologist for Serco, and who travelled on the Lowlander earlier this week. He made the following observations. He sees truth in everything you've said but is a lot less strong on the negatives and also sees a lot of positives.


They're having masses of teething technical problems so I understand that they've no more idea of when the train's ready to board than you have. It's very frustrating, but they're not doing it because they're slack.

Euston is a building site now, which doesn't help. Use the Virgin lounge, but obviously this is little use if boarding is so late that it's shut. Comments as above on 10pm boarding.


Agree that this is annoying but could just as easily have happened on the old stock.


Your crew were probably working the lounge and kitchen for the very first time other than when they were trained. Sure get annoyed about this if it's still the case in six months, but not on day four.

The corridors are narrower. It allows the beds to be longer.

Beds are an inch longer and, apparently, slightly wider, although he agrees that they look narrower. He disagrees that there's too much floor space considering the suitcase palaver caused by there being no overhead racks.

Looks like a localised fault, he had complete control of cabin temp.

Agreed. This needs to be fixed. He thought it was a one off in his cabin until reading your report. It looks like they were maybe tested with higher water pressure than the onboard pump is capable of. Somebody needs to get their screwdriver out.

Pressure is adequate, no more than that, but equally you don't want to drain the tanks. No problems with temperature.

The lip is low and yes this could become a problem. Wet carpet risk isn't helped by there being no bath mat, he used a hand towel but it isn't everyone who'd go to the bother of doing this.

Doesn't know why, and there is a lack of storage space for larger items generally, I've heard that safety regs prevented overhead luggage racks and the sink is uncovered because unfamiliar users didn't realise it was there in the mk3s. I see that there's been comment about the hangers elsewhere.

Dunno - is it because faulty units can be swapped out easily? Agrees that they're a bit Soviet era chunky in their aesthetic.

Didn't look at or think about the intercom. The blue attendant button in the mk3s was in an equally accident prone position. They could be converted to telephone handsets if they get too annoying I suppose.

The mk3 sleeper is a masterpiece of smooth quiet running at speed amidships and arguably has never been bettered by any UK train type. Gangway noise and lateral jerking din at mk3 coach ends is a disaster however and he thinks that the combination of Dellners and silent gangways has transformed this aspect on the mk5s. No rattling doors and other knackered fittings loosened from their fixings.

He says ride and vibration feels similar to a 385, which is hardly a ringing endorsement. It isn't soaking up the bumps like mk3 air suspension does, so probably slightly inferior. Slept fine however.

Thinks this might be to cast a shadow at the door lip so you don't trip over it, but that's just a theory.

The light cast is very dim and you need to be able to see the light switch to turn it on. Not bothered by this.


There are things that could be better but a lot of them are teething problems or can be easily fixed. However, if cabin noise and vibration is only better than a mk3 in certain ways and not others, and it's more susceptible to poor track, then that is disappointing and not easily fixed. On the other hand a mk5 lounge is light years ahead of a rickety clasp braked mk2 with the ambience of an eighties nightclub.

He adds that the big step forward for him is that the whole thing is very smart and no longer a dilapidated swirly carpeted boghole, and that is what 99% of passengers will think about.
I also reached quickly for the hand towel. I really didn't want to be responsible for the start of wet carpet syndrome on week 1!

On the bed width I will stick to my guns. An extra inch or two would make all the difference and there seems to be to be room for it. A wasted opportunity to me.

In general I really support night train provision and so I very much hope they can iron out what they can. I will also have an extra whisky before (semi) lights out next time.
 

Butts

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Yes. 50% for 30 to 60 minutes. 100% for > 60 minutes.

I wonder if they were advertising that fact onboard some of the inaugral journeys when it went belly up ?

Could hardly have been a profitable enterprise if everyone claimed !!
 

TimboM

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I wonder if they were advertising that fact onboard some of the inaugral journeys when it went belly up ?

Could hardly have been a profitable enterprise if everyone claimed !!
When there are delays they do advertise it and it’s prominent on the website - I suspect it’s a requirement to do so.

Also, there’s a whole mechanism whereby cost of delays are attributed to who is deemed to have caused them. Has a significant proportion of the delays on the first night were caused by the signalling issues, Network Rail would pick up a significant proportion of the tab.
 

BRX

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Last time I travelled, we were delayed by just over 30 mins and the steward came and gave us the delay repay forms.
 

47271

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The best part of the Mk 5s was none of that annoying metallic thrumming noise you got off the Mk 3 bogies when stationary!
What exactly produces that noise on mk3s, I agree that it's really quite irritating? You get it at very low speeds as well.
 

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