First Manchester: driver refuses to accept PASSPORT as proof of age

Adlington · 5 May 2019

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/get-fing-bus-dad-says-16224493

A dad claims his daughter was 'abandoned' at the side of the road by a bus driver who refused to let her pay the child's fare because her passport was 'not valid proof of her age'.

Gregory Donovan says his daughter Lili, 15, has had to pay the full adult fare several times on the First Manchester bus from Middleton to Bury, even though she's shown her school bus pass.

On one occasion, he says the schoolgirl asked for the reduced child's fare - and even showed the driver her passport to prove her age. But the driver refused it - because the only ID that First will accept for 11-16-year-olds' fares is the IGO travel pass.

The IGO travel pass costs £10, so the dad is right saying it's nothing more than a money-making scam.

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Mwanesh · 5 May 2019

Does she not wear a uniform to school.If in school uniform i issue child tickets.

Bletchleyite · 5 May 2019

It isnt about proof of age. GM only allows 11-16s child rate if they have the GM card, similar to London. No card, no child fare, no exceptions.

cactustwirly · 5 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It isnt about proof of age. GM only allows 11-16s child rate if they have the GM card, similar to London. No card, no child fare, no exceptions.

Which is a very stupid policy!

Bletchleyite · 5 May 2019

cactustwirly said:
Which is a very stupid policy!

It's certainly unnecessarily disadvantageous to visitors.

Andyh82 · 5 May 2019

Typical newspaper story, why do people go to the papers over such a silly matter?

I haven’t clicked the link but is there a photo of them stood at a bus stop looking annoyed?

Deerfold · 5 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It's certainly unnecessarily disadvantageous to visitors.

But unfortunately that's quite common. My nephew, 13 (and very tall) happily pays half fare to school every day in Leicester, but is an adult when he visits me in West Yorkshire (though tickets such as Transdev's Daytripper Group can come in very useful).

Bletchleyite · 5 May 2019

There could do with being a national scheme, really.

cactustwirly · 5 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
There could do with being a national scheme, really.

Or a much simpler solution would be to sell normal child tickets like the rest of the country...

Kahuna47 · 5 May 2019

Its only a 6/10 for compo face, shoddy work!

TfGM have openly said that the only valid ID is the IGO card, but quite agree there should be some sort of national ID card available for this type of thing.

Personally, I haven't got the time or strength to argue the toss when people ask for a dubious child fare, and I usually argue with revenue about safeguarding as a reason to sell them a ticket at that price. As in all companies, there are jobsworths who go out of their way to make the job difficult for people (and at the end of the day themselves).

After 7.30pm, the passengers could show me a Tesco reciept and I'd probably let them on!

Deerfold · 5 May 2019

cactustwirly said:
Or a much simpler solution would be to sell normal child tickets like the rest of the country...

There's many parts of the country where you have to have the appropriate local half fare pass.

Mwanesh · 5 May 2019

As much as i have sympathy for him and the kid, moving around with a passport daily is not advisable to me

The IGo card is only a tenner. In Wales they have the My Travel Pass card .They know the score if you have a card it's child fare; if not it's full fare for the college kids.

randyrippley · 5 May 2019

Meanwhile other bus companies don't require any form of ID.
Stagecoach in the northwest certainly don't

Alexbus12 · 5 May 2019

randyrippley said:
Meanwhile other bus companies don't require any form of ID.
Stagecoach in the northwest certainly don't

Every operator in Greater Manchester requires an igo card for a child's ticket, including Stagecoach.

Adlington · 5 May 2019

Stupidity of the IGO pass:
To get the pass you need to supply a photo and a proof of your name and age. So far so good. But then T&C say "The igo pass must be shown to the bus driver and to any other official who requests it during the journey. Proof of identity, if requested, must also be provided". Why does the proof of identity need to be provided on request?
https://tfgm.com/tickets-and-passes/igo-pass

randyrippley · 5 May 2019

Alexbus12 said:
Every operator in Greater Manchester requires an igo card for a child's ticket, including Stagecoach.

really? does that mean its a council / TfGM thing?
Stagecoach don't need them in Preston / Lancaster / Lakes

randyrippley · 5 May 2019

Adlington said:
Stupidity of the IGO pass:
To get the pass you need to supply a photo and a proof of your name and age. So far so good. But then T&C say "The igo pass must be shown to the bus driver and to any other official who requests it during the journey. Proof of identity, if requested, must also be provided". Why does the proof of identity need to be provided on request?
https://tfgm.com/tickets-and-passes/igo-pass

reading that page:

To qualify for an igo pass you must be:

aged between 5 and 16

be a permanent resident of, or go to school in, Greater Manchester

so children who are visitors aren't entitled to child fares on bus or tram
thats simply stupid

richw · 5 May 2019

Group of 15 year olds at 2300.... I don’t know about GM but some areas have a policy no unaccompanied child fares after 2100.
Now I wouldn’t like to assume but a group of teenagers that late at night in my day would have been under age drinking. Maybe not applicable in this case If someone is drunk is it fair for the driver to assume they required an adult fare. After all you need to be adult age to drink.

Adlington · 5 May 2019

randyrippley said:
so children who are visitors aren't entitled to child fares on bus or tram
thats simply stupid

As stupid as the London's Freedom Pass rule: to qualify you must live in London.

Adlington · 5 May 2019

richw said:
I don’t know about GM but some areas have a policy no unaccompanied child fares after 2100.
Now I wouldn’t like to assume but a group of teenagers that late at night in my day would have been under age drinking..

Accompanied children also require an IGO pass.
And your comment about underage drinking does not deserve a reply.

Man of Kent · 5 May 2019

I understand half fares for children are part of the Greater Manchester concessionary fares scheme, rather than a commercial product, so presumably bus operators receive some reimbursement from TfGM. Accordingly their rules have to be followed. It seems the driver would be wrong which ever course of action they followed - no doubt one set of rules says not to sell child tickets to anyone without an igo pass, and another says don't leave vulnerable people behind, so there is potentially a disciplinary on either front.

richw · 5 May 2019

Adlington said:
And your comment about underage drinking does not deserve a reply.

It’s the reality of teenage groups out late at night. Kids out unaccompanied at 2300 is the bigger issue here from a parenting point of view.

Andyh82 · 5 May 2019

No different than many other areas, where you’ve always needed a pass to claim a half fare as a teenager, and there is an administration fee attached to getting one. I needed one back in the 1990s, nobody complained to the papers if they forgot, they just paid adult fare.

randyrippley · 5 May 2019

Andyh82 said:
No different than many other areas, where you’ve always needed a pass to claim a half fare as a teenager, and there is an administration fee attached to getting one. I needed one back in the 1990s, nobody complained to the papers if they forgot, they just paid adult fare.

but its daft if its a local scheme only available to local people. My son could get a train into Manchester on a childs ticket without being queried, but once he's in Manchester he has to pay full fare on bus or tram because the pass is only available to Manchester residents. I assume whoever runs TfGM lives up the hill in Royston Vasey? Its a good reason for for not allowing TfGM to have any control over the railways. I can forsee a future situation where he could get a childs ticket into Manchester, stay with his pals, then next day want to get to the airport and refused a childs ticket...............
Card schemes like this simply cannot be justified, but if they exist they should be universally available and part of a national scheme.

WatcherZero · 5 May 2019

Adlington said:
Stupidity of the IGO pass:
To get the pass you need to supply a photo and a proof of your name and age. So far so good. But then T&C say "The igo pass must be shown to the bus driver and to any other official who requests it during the journey. Proof of identity, if requested, must also be provided". Why does the proof of identity need to be provided on request?
https://tfgm.com/tickets-and-passes/igo-pass

IF you suspect the person using the IGO pass isn't a child then you could challenge them to prove they are the passes owner. Theres a kid on my daily bus whose only 16 but over 6ft so has to carry an additional proof of age document (basically its a letter testifying he is a valid pass user).

randyrippley · 6 May 2019

WatcherZero said:
IF you suspect the person using the IGO pass isn't a child then you could challenge them to prove they are the passes owner. Theres a kid on my daily bus whose only 16 but over 6ft so has to carry an additional proof of age document (basically its a letter testifying he is a valid pass user).

the pass has a photo of the user, surely thats enough?

PeterC · 6 May 2019

randyrippley said:
the pass has a photo of the user, surely thats enough?

As far as I can make out the pass lasts from issue to age 16. So a photo of an 11 year old!

When I was 15 there were no concessions, you were an adult as far as the bus companies were concerned.

Andyh82 · 6 May 2019

randyrippley said:
but its daft if its a local scheme only available to local people. My son could get a train into Manchester on a childs ticket without being queried, but once he's in Manchester he has to pay full fare on bus or tram because the pass is only available to Manchester residents. I assume whoever runs TfGM lives up the hill in Royston Vasey? Its a good reason for for not allowing TfGM to have any control over the railways. I can forsee a future situation where he could get a childs ticket into Manchester, stay with his pals, then next day want to get to the airport and refused a childs ticket...............
Card schemes like this simply cannot be justified, but if they exist they should be universally available and part of a national scheme.

I believe children’s concessions are not a legal requirement, they are decided locally, paid from local budgets, and can vary from county to county (some are free, flat fare, half fare, some other fare) This will be why the passes are locally issued and only valid for residents.

It’s no different than the additional perks children and pensioners get in London compared to outsiders, or additional perks ENCTS passes allow in certain areas (travel on trams, discounts on trains, different start times etc)

LiviCrazy · 6 May 2019

I remember when I was about 14, I got on a Lothian Bus and asked for a half fare. Not being from Edinburgh I didn’t have the applicable ID on me (before Young Scot has launched) and didn’t have any proof of age (this was never required on First or Horsburgh). The driver refused me half fare, but I remembered a rule my Dad had told me as an ex driver that they couldn’t legally remove you or touch you. So I stood my ground, after several minutes and many of the passengers starting to shout abuse at the driver he gave in and allowed me on for child fare.

Deerfold · 6 May 2019

PeterC said:
As far as I can make out the pass lasts from issue to age 16. So a photo of an 11 year old!

When I was 15 there were no concessions, you were an adult as far as the bus companies were concerned.

That may have varied from area to area. I remember when I was 17. I still got half fare in West Yorkshire and paid 15p on the bus to school - few child fares went over 30p, even on lengthy trips and a day ticket for buses and trains after 0930 was £1. On a trip to Pooley Bridge I was shocked when my (adult) fare was £2.05 to Penrith.

First Manchester: driver refuses to accept PASSPORT as proof of age

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