First Manchester: driver refuses to accept PASSPORT as proof of age

neilmc · 6 May 2019

Adlington said:
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/get-fing-bus-dad-says-16224493
The IGO travel pass costs £10, so the dad is right saying it's nothing more than a money-making scam.

The bus driver is technically right, he's complying with the GM scam which ensures that visiting over-11s have to pay full adult fare on buses as they are not eligible for an igo pass. However, if you use the tram a passport is perfectly OK as proof of age! Tough on the bus if you have teenagers, so take granny to Manchester instead and she can travel all day for free, as long as she doesn't venture on Metrolink, of course!

However when researching this topic I couldn't believe this:

https://tfgm.com/tickets-and-passes/womens-concessionary-travel-scheme

Basically GM are subverting equality legislation by offering women of my age a pass for which men are not eligible!

I'm a great believer in local autonomy but GM really need sorting out, he transport confusion is a disgrace.

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Deerfold · 6 May 2019

neilmc said:
The bus driver is technically right, he's complying with the GM scam which ensures that visiting over-11s have to pay full adult fare on buses as they are not eligible for an igo pass. However, if you use the tram a passport is perfectly OK as proof of age! Tough on the bus if you have teenagers, so take granny to Manchester instead and she can travel all day for free, as long as she doesn't venture on Metrolink, of course!

However when researching this topic I couldn't believe this:

https://tfgm.com/tickets-and-passes/womens-concessionary-travel-scheme

Basically GM are subverting equality legislation by offering women of my age a pass for which men are not eligible!

I'm a great believer in local autonomy but GM really need sorting out, he transport confusion is a disgrace.

These are people who believed they would be getting a pension by now, but for whom the rules were changed at short notice. Many planned their life depending on that being true. Men of the same age were not assured of a pension at the same age.

radamfi · 6 May 2019

In most European countries, adult fare applies from age 12. However, adult fare outside Britain is often lower than child fare in Britain outside London. Better that everyone has affordable fares rather than just children.

richw · 6 May 2019

radamfi said:
In most European countries, adult fare applies from age 12. However, adult fare outside Britain is often lower than child fare in Britain outside London. Better that everyone has affordable fares rather than just children.

I’ve spent the last week in Mojacar near Almeria in Spain, everyone from 0-dead paid 1.20Eur single for any distance on the L1 service along the playa up to the hill top Pueblo. About 45 mins end to end.

Tetchytyke · 6 May 2019

Deerfold said:
These are people who believed they would be getting a pension by now, but for whom the rules were changed at short notice.

And that means they should get an ENCTS early, even though ENCTS predates the pension change by less than two years? Hmm.

As for TfGM, I don't mind concessions being restricted to local people, but I can't believe there isn't a commercial alternative. Round here the really cheap flat fares are restricted to POP card holders, but there are commercial child fares offered too. But then I get annoyed by that too; my eldest lives with her mum outside the region so I can't get a POP card for her, even though I'm her dad and pay my taxes here. If commercial child fares disappeared I'd just start lying and say she lives with me.

Tetchytyke · 6 May 2019

radamfi said:
Better that everyone has affordable fares rather than just children.

Imagine if there was a scheme that gave some people free bus rides and it cost a billion quid a year despite being massively underfunded. Imagine if that money was redistributed more equitably. And imagine watching your voter base desert you when the baby boomers don't want to share their toys.

NorthernSpirit · 6 May 2019

Deerfold said:
There's many parts of the country where you have to have the appropriate local half fare pass.

In West Sussex, the county council did away with the 3-in-1 card a couple of years back and instead the user has to carry a CitizenCard ID card to obtain half fare.

Deerfold · 6 May 2019

Arctic Troll said:
And that means they should get an ENCTS early, even though ENCTS predates the pension change by less than two years? Hmm.

It's a small concession. Far less than they'd have got with a pension.

Andyh82 · 6 May 2019

Arctic Troll said:
And that means they should get an ENCTS early, even though ENCTS predates the pension change by less than two years? Hmm.

As for TfGM, I don't mind concessions being restricted to local people, but I can't believe there isn't a commercial alternative. Round here the really cheap flat fares are restricted to POP card holders, but there are commercial child fares offered too. But then I get annoyed by that too; my eldest lives with her mum outside the region so I can't get a POP card for her, even though I'm her dad and pay my taxes here. If commercial child fares disappeared I'd just start lying and say she lives with me.

That sounds even more confusing, not one reduced fare system for children, but two!

The situation around needing a local half fare pass I believe also applies in West Yorks and South Yorks so TfGM is nothing special.

duncombec · 7 May 2019

radamfi said:
In most European countries, adult fare applies from age 12. However, adult fare outside Britain is often lower than child fare in Britain outside London. Better that everyone has affordable fares rather than just children.

As usual, some sweeping and somewhat questionable statements there: I won't go into too much detail to avoid going flying off into the usual totally unnecessary "Europe" versus UK debate, but I will comment in the area of Germany I know best, child fare is available until 15th birthday, and monthly passes for scholars remain at the largely cheaper rate (I calculate about 20% cheaper than the adult rate).

Manchester always seems to have been slightly out of sync with what you would expect: I remember being surprised that I could use a System One ticket on trains within the validity area, but not Metrolink. Insisting on a specific sort of pass is fine within reason, and certainly stops drivers having to guess or challenge ages, but I see no reason for it to be restricted to residents - I can (or could) get a System One photocard valid for 5 years despite not being a resident as an adult! Nevertheless, as the ultimate proof of age document aside from a birth certificate, you would think drivers would be permitted to issue child fares on the basis of "any government-issued proof of age document".

Perhaps if the ENCTS passes were properly funded, with the bus company receiving full reimbursement, the adult fare wouldn't need to be so high to start with?

philjo · 7 May 2019

In Hertfordshire anyone over the age of 11 up to 18 needs to have a Saver Card to get child fares on local buses. It is only available to those to live in Hertfordshire (or attend a Hertfordshire school)
The card costs £15 per year - the price rises to £20 in September. When I was at school in early 1990s the card was free - you just needed the school office to stamp the reverse side to validate it.
Local buses will charge adult fares to anyone who does not show a valid saver fare if they are aged 11 or over.

https://www.hertfordshire.gov.uk/se...half-fare-bus-travel-for-11–18-year-olds.aspx

Statto · 7 May 2019

Andyh82 said:
That sounds even more confusing, not one reduced fare system for children, but two!

The situation around needing a local half fare pass I believe also applies in West Yorks and South Yorks so TfGM is nothing special.

That they're only available to residents & those that go to schools in the TGFM area that's the bone of contention, those that are visiting TGFM are being forced to pay full adult fares, are effectively penalised for just visiting the area, seems it's the same for West Yorkshire & South Yorkshire as well only open to residents only, it's ridiculous U16 visitors to these areas can travel half fare on the train, but not local buses/trams.

Man of Kent · 7 May 2019

Certainly at one stage the TfGM scheme was a flat fare, so reimbursement to operators was essential. However, at half fare, it much more closely resembles commercial child fares elsewhere, and so the fact that it is actually a statutory scheme is rather less obvious.
If anyone really wants to read the scheme rules, child/young persons can be found on pp14-15 of this document:
https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93...985_Act_Concessionary_Scheme_2_April_2018.pdf

Rail Ranger · 12 May 2019

The girl had a free school bus pass issued by a local authority so did not need to have or show an IGO pass.

Bletchleyite · 12 May 2019

Rail Ranger said:
The girl had a free school bus pass issued by a local authority so did not need to have or show an IGO pass.

You mean that was valid for that journey? If so what business did the driver have asking for other ID?

If it was not, then it is not in my understanding valid for the purpose you suggest - an IGO pass is required - think of it as similar to a Railcard rather than as a piece of ID.

Bletchleyite · 12 May 2019

Man of Kent said:
Certainly at one stage the TfGM scheme was a flat fare, so reimbursement to operators was essential. However, at half fare, it much more closely resembles commercial child fares elsewhere, and so the fact that it is actually a statutory scheme is rather less obvious.
If anyone really wants to read the scheme rules, child/young persons can be found on pp14-15 of this document:
https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93...985_Act_Concessionary_Scheme_2_April_2018.pdf

I'm not sure what GM are doing subsidising these fares when the bus companies would almost certainly offer them commercially if the subsidy was withdrawn. I guess it stems back to when it was a very low flat fare (I remember it being 34p when I was at Uni, though it had gone up a bit since then).

radamfi · 12 May 2019

For many years, child and pensioner bus fares were the same flat fare. I remember paying 10p and 12p, and then maybe 14p and 17p. So it was a huge shock when you had to start paying deregulated adult fares. When I started travelling outside GM I obviously realised that children and pensioners in GM were very lucky to have such low fares. Looking back, it is strange how concessionary fares for those two age groups have been decoupled.

jumble · 13 May 2019

cactustwirly said:
Which is a very stupid policy!

i disagree
It must save drivers a huge amount of time arguing if children do not have a government ID
( lots of ID can be faked
Also why should TFL subsidise visitors children? ( part of TFL funding comes from my council tax which might be higher if they did so)

PeterC · 13 May 2019

jumble said:
i disagree
It must save drivers a huge amount of time arguing if children do not have a government ID
( lots of ID can be faked
Also why should TFL subsidise visitors children? ( part of TFL funding comes from my council tax which might be higher if they did so)

I thought that they did subsidise visitors' children, last time that I checked you didn't need to be a Londoner to get a Zip Oyster.

Kahuna47 · 13 May 2019

PeterC said:
I thought that they did subsidise visitors' children, last time that I checked you didn't need to be a Londoner to get a Zip Oyster.

Unfortunately not - under 16s (i think) get completely free travel on TfL services (something I intend to use the living snot out of when I visit London with kids in tow soon!), where the rest of the England (including TfGM land) have their own type of thing - either half fares or a flat fare.

What is interesting is the development of Our Pass in GM for 16-18 year olds to get free travel, whilst those under 16 will still have to pay. Bit of a disparity in my opinion, and will cost ratepayers in GM a small fortune to subsidise, particularly where they have to pay for the WASPI passes too!

richw · 13 May 2019

Kahuna47 said:
under 16s (i think) get completely free travel on TfL services (something I intend to use the living snot out of when I visit London with kids in tow soon!

Is this correct? How do barriers get operated to let children through?

Kahuna47 · 13 May 2019

richw said:
Is this correct? How do barriers get operated to let children through?

From what I've gleaned from the TfL website, as long as either myself or my better half has an Oyster card (which both of us will do of course), a member of gateline staff will wave you through one of the barriers.

I've not tried it yet, so the practice may be different to the theory!

EDIT: Double checked the info, under 11s are free regardless, 11-16s have to have a 'discount code' added to their own Oyster. Link: https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-informati...r-visitors-to-pay?intcmp=27718#on-this-page-4)

Bletchleyite · 13 May 2019

Kahuna47 said:
What is interesting is the development of Our Pass in GM for 16-18 year olds to get free travel, whilst those under 16 will still have to pay. Bit of a disparity in my opinion, and will cost ratepayers in GM a small fortune to subsidise, particularly where they have to pay for the WASPI passes too!

It does seem bizarre to offer free travel for 16-18 and half fare for up to 16 rather than reduce the child fare and extend it up to 18. Or perhaps even better spend it on operating subsidy to restore lost services - no use the bus being free if you aren't served by it!

Qwerty133 · 13 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It does seem bizarre to offer free travel for 16-18 and half fare for up to 16 rather than reduce the child fare and extend it up to 18. Or perhaps even better spend it on operating subsidy to restore lost services - no use the bus being free if you aren't served by it!

The argument as I see it is under 16s have free transport to school (or live within walking distance) while those aged 16-18 have historically had to pay which is really a hidden cost of remaining in education that some families simply couldn't afford. Even those in apprenticeships are often on wages so low that they would hardly cover the bus fare in many cases.

richw · 13 May 2019

Kahuna47 said:
From what I've gleaned from the TfL website, as long as either myself or my better half has an Oyster card (which both of us will do of course), a member of gateline staff will wave you through one of the barriers.

Is an oyster zip not required? Buses and trams don’t need it but I thought underground did

Bletchleyite · 13 May 2019

richw said:
Is an oyster zip not required? Buses and trams don’t need it but I thought underground did

For under 11s it's not.

MotCO · 13 May 2019

I can understand why TfL allows free travel for children to enable them to go to and from school (it helps with congestion for example, in theory anyway), but I am not sure why they have free travel at all times. Should children have unrestricted free travel, or only for school journeys? Does free travel encourage laziness (and poor health?) or unruly behaviour in the evenings?

AY1975 · 5 Jun 2019

Mwanesh said:
Does she not wear a uniform to school.If in school uniform i issue child tickets.

What, even if it's a Year 11 pupil who has had their 16th birthday (or a sixth former who goes to a school where sixth formers have to wear uniform)?

I believe some local authorities issue half-fare passes to 16-18 or 16-19 year olds in full time education, though.

AY1975 · 5 Jun 2019

richw said:
I don’t know about GM but some areas have a policy no unaccompanied child fares after 2100.

I seem to recall that on London buses in the 1970s and '80s children had to pay full fare after a certain time in the evening (probably 21.00 or 21.30) whether they were accompanied by an adult or not, although child Bus Passes and Travelcards were still valid after this time. I once got told by a bus conductor "you should be in bed" when I was a kid and travelling home late one evening with my mum from visiting my gran!

ivanhoe · 5 Jun 2019

Arctic Troll said:
Imagine if there was a scheme that gave some people free bus rides and it cost a billion quid a year despite being massively underfunded. Imagine if that money was redistributed more equitably. And imagine watching your voter base desert you when the baby boomers don't want to share their toys.

The problem lays at the door of the Government rather than the "Baby Boomers", as you suggest. Turn your argument around and ask why the under 40's don't bother to vote in the same numbers as the over 60's because they couldn't bother getting off their backsides The persistent number of ageist remarks on here seems to carry on without intervention from mods. What GM are trying to do with this particular group of women can only be commended. However, when Government refuses to back in full Parliament's wishes and throws the problem at LA's who in turn have been treated dreadfully by Government, then perhaps you may accept that any financial issues arising out of ENCTS is not the fault of anybody of pensionable age, but the refusal of Government to provide funding or bring forward legislation to Parliament to amend current scheme. Unless of course, it doesn't suit your narrative.

First Manchester: driver refuses to accept PASSPORT as proof of age

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