Given PFN but details taken

Hoping someone can help.

My sister stupidly travelled on Chiltern Rail without a valid ticket and got caught trying to tap out with her contactless card in London after boarding at a station with no barriers. Journey about 30 mins and would have cost about £16.

The inspector gave her a penalty fare notice which she paid on the spot but he also took her details. She has once many years ago been given (and paid) a similar penalty fare notice for accidentally travelling with an expired railcard and I believe they took down her details then too.

Is anything else likely to happen? She is very concerned further action might be considered as she will be on the records for her first PFN.

Thanks in advance.

It is extremely unlikely that she will ever hear about it again, TOCs almost always treat payment of a penalty fare as the end of the matter

Thanks for your quick response sorry to be ignorant but is there any circumstance where they might? Thank you again.

hels18 said:

Thanks for your quick response sorry to be ignorant but is there any circumstance where they might? Thank you again.

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A regular pattern of doing the same thing.

As in regularly getting a Fixed Penalty Notice/details taken? I just have a sneaking suspicion that she may have done this before but not necessarily been caught, she has not told me this information but she can be dishonest. I hope this will deter her for the future.

Your sister may want to bear in mind that as well as being stopped, charged a penalty fare and having details taken, the railways do keep an eye out for regular fare evaders - recognising faces, and who uses what train and so on. So if your sister is making a habit of fare dodging, then it's by no means impossible that she might find herself taken to one side and - if she cannot produce a valid ticket - find herself taken to court for fare dodging.

Happily, there's an easy way to avoid this being a problem. That's for your sister to make sure that she buys the right ticket before getting on the train every time she travels.

Fawkes Cat said:

Your sister may want to bear in mind that as well as being stopped, charged a penalty fare and having details taken, the railways do keep an eye out for regular fare evaders - recognising faces, and who uses what train and so on. So if your sister is making a habit of fare dodging, then it's by no means impossible that she might find herself taken to one side and - if she cannot produce a valid ticket - find herself taken to court for fare dodging.

Happily, there's an easy way to avoid this being a problem. That's for your sister to make sure that she buys the right ticket before getting on the train every time she travels.

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Indeed. I have relayed this message. I assume her contactless card could be checked for previous journeys where she may not have a departure destination, or where she may have tapped in in London, with no tap out afterwards? I just want to ensure she tells the truth if anything further comes of it, especially if it is the case she has done this before and it is recorded somewhere.

I think the important message for your sister should not be around the minutiae of checking of previous journeys and what-not. Rather, it should be the more simple “if you want to travel on a train, pay your fare”.

hels18 said:

Indeed. I have relayed this message. I assume her contactless card could be checked for previous journeys where she may not have a departure destination, or where she may have tapped in in London, with no tap out afterwards? I just want to ensure she tells the truth if anything further comes of it, especially if it is the case she has done this before and it is recorded somewhere.

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This forum is made up of some railway workers, but they are only a small number among many people who are just interested in railways. So we can't give you a definitive answer to this sort of question.

But it seems to me that since your sister was given a penalty fare when her name was taken, then that will be the end of the matter. If (as I suggested above) she had been spotted as a persistent fare dodger, I would have expected that she would have been interviewed under caution - the railway's revenue protection people would not have let her walk away.

I am pretty sure that will turn out to be the right answer. But it is possible (unlikely, but possible) that when the railway check their records they will find that they have charged your sister a penalty fare before. In that case, they could legally withdraw the penalty fare, and prosecute instead.

And should your sister carry on fare dodging, the risk of being caught will increase. Your sister has been caught twice, so she knows that you don't always get away with it. If she is caught again, the railway won't see a couple of mistakes - they will see a pattern of behaviour. In other words, they will see a habitual criminal who should be taken to court and punished. And a conviction for fare dodging is much more serious than having to pay a penalty fare: a conviction under the Regulation of the Railways Act will appear if you are DBS checked, and can make it difficult to study for or work in various professions such as teaching and nursing.

But on the basis of what you have told us, it probably won't come to that. So far, your sister has been lucky. As @island says above, the best way for her to stay lucky is to make sure that in future she pays her fare.

Fawkes Cat said:

But it is possible (unlikely, but possible) that when the railway check their records they will find that they have charged your sister a penalty fare before. In that case, they could legally withdraw the penalty fare, and prosecute instead.

If she is caught again, the railway won't see a couple of mistakes - they will see a pattern of behaviour. In other words, they will see a habitual criminal who should be taken to court and punished. And a conviction for fare dodging is much more serious than having to pay a penalty fare: a conviction under the Regulation of the Railways Act will appear if you are DBS checked, and can make it difficult to study for or work in various professions such as teaching and nursing.

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I'm sorry to say but you are very mistaken. You can't just take someone to court willy nilly as you suggest.

If you are issued two penalty fares within a six month period then it could arouse interest that the passenger is a potential fare evader and the train company may look to investigate further with a view to prosecution.

Anything longer than that and the penalty fare will be the end of the matter as a train company would simply not be able to prosecute on the basis of two penalty fares issued more than six months apart. There is a six month limitation period which bars defendants from being prosecuted through the Magistrates if the first offence occurred more than six months ago. This limitation period exists to protect the defendant as recollections of the incident fade and evidence are often discarded as time progresses. It would therefore not be possible for a train company to refer to a penalty fare issued more than six months ago as evidence of fare evasion in a Magistrates court as this incident is statute barred and has never, and cannot be corroborated in court.

I would suggest your sister has nothing to worry about if her previous fine was a couple of years ago. But do avoid getting into trouble before it arises in the future.

js1000 said:

If you are issued two penalty fares within a six month period then it could arouse interest that the passenger is a potential fare evader and the train company may look to investigate further with a view to prosecution.

Anything longer than that and the penalty fare will be the end of the matter as a train company would simply not be able to prosecute on the basis of two penalty fares issued more than six months apart.

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Agreed - but if the train company still held information about the first penalty fare (and there's a whole separate discussion to be had about how long train companies hold information for and how long GDPR will allow them to hold information for, but let's not muddy the waters by having that discussion here) it seems to me that they could consider it in deciding whether to pursue the passenger further - whether that pursuit is by way of going immediately to court, or by watching the passenger to see whether there are any further irregularities to pursue.

js1000 said:

But do avoid getting into trouble before it arises in the future

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This is the important advice we have all been trying to give the OP.

Something that's statute barred wouldn't be a reason for immediate prosecution for fare evasion.

The previous time was many years ago.

Would hels18 be correct in saying to the sister that - as far as can be guessed from the brief descriptions - she may well have been lucky both times not to be prosecuted (or faced with a settlement offer involving substantially more money than the penalty fare)?

hels18 said:

Indeed. I have relayed this message. I assume her contactless card could be checked for previous journeys where she may not have a departure destination, or where she may have tapped in in London, with no tap out afterwards? I just want to ensure she tells the truth if anything further comes of it, especially if it is the case she has done this before and it is recorded somewhere.

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If it’s a contactless bank card rather than an Oyster Card, then no, specific journeys and/or usage cannot be checked (not as routinely as an Oyster Card at least - the bank would have to be contacted and unless it’s a very serious fraud case with police involvement, I doubt they’d release any information). Due to the nature of contactless payments, the information staff can obtain is limited to a reference number. Because of this, on repeat failed taps or misuse, the card will be automatically blocked for travel, indicating acts of fare evasion. In this case, it’s usually a report for prosecution by the TOC rather than a Penalty Fare.

Stigy said:

If it’s a contactless bank card rather than an Oyster Card, then no, specific journeys and/or usage cannot be checked (not as routinely as an Oyster Card at least - the bank would have to be contacted and unless it’s a very serious fraud case with police involvement, I doubt they’d release any information). Due to the nature of contactless payments, the information staff can obtain is limited to a reference number. Because of this, on repeat failed taps or misuse, the card will be automatically blocked for travel, indicating acts of fare evasion. In this case, it’s usually a report for prosecution by the TOC rather than a Penalty Fare.

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How can it charge the right amount if it isn't recording the specific journey information? It's available in an online account just the same as Oyster, why wouldn't it be searchable just the same?

andrewkeith5 said:

How can it charge the right amount if it isn't recording the specific journey information? It's available in an online account just the same as Oyster, why wouldn't it be searchable just the same?

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There’s a paper trail via a ‘back office’ system (so it’s not real-time). In terms of the information available to staff of a TOC for tracing journeys, there isn’t anything that is readily available like there is with Oyster Cards.

andrewkeith5 said:

How can it charge the right amount if it isn't recording the specific journey information? It's available in an online account just the same as Oyster, why wouldn't it be searchable just the same?

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The information is all recorded centrally, usually within 5-10 minutes of each touch. The correct charge is calculated by the back office taking account of all touches recorded in a day. Neither the RPIs readers nor the ticket machines connect to the central database when checking a card because it would (a) take too long, and (b) might be missing a recent touch.

With Oyster, all the information is written to the card so it can be checked in real time. For hopefully obvious reasons the banks won't let TfL write anything on their cards.