• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Caledonian Sleeper

HamworthyGoods

HamworthyGoods

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2019
Messages
3,946
WesternLancer said:
But you have to get a taxi (or walk) from east midlands parkway station to East Mids airport since the demise of any kind of bus link:s
But I know what you mean, or a bus from one of the not that nearby cities.
Click to expand...
Very frequent bus links from Loughborough station to East Midlands Airport
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Butts

Butts

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Jan 2011
Messages
11,324
Location
Stirlingshire
So the $64,000 question - is the Caledonian Sleeper a White Elephant ?

Could it be that it ends up a "Vanity Project" morphing into an expensive "Tourist Trap" for the uninformed ?

Would people rather still be paying £49 for First's 1st Class bargain berths in a clapped out but at least reasonably priced alternative to the far quicker "Air Alternative"?
 
B

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,895
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Butts said:
Would people rather still be paying £49 for First's 1st Class bargain berths in a clapped out but at least reasonably priced alternative to the far quicker "Air Alternative"?
Click to expand...

The Mk3s were and are in a poor state, and the Mk2s even more so. I suppose they could have converted some Mk3 TSOs to brake vehicles and used those, but they'd have to drop a sleeper coach off each train to fit the longer vehicles in. So something had to give - new stock, a very heavy refurb (Night Riviera style) or closure.

I do think the lack of "pods" or couchettes is an absolute killer, and these would have been that middle ground. If anything, if it was a choice between seats and couchettes, couchettes would have been better. An extra TSO could always have been ordered to cover the Fort Bill day passengers.
 
A

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,686
Location
Redcar
Bletchleyite said:
The Mk3s were and are in a poor state, and the Mk2s even more so.
Click to expand...
The Caledonian Sleeper Mk3s are in a poor state. The Night Riveria's Mk3s were in much better condition even five or six years ago and have since had an excellent refurbishment.
 
B

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,895
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
ainsworth74 said:
The Caledonian Sleeper Mk3s are in a poor state. The Night Riveria's Mk3s were in much better condition even five or six years ago and have since had an excellent refurbishment.
Click to expand...

Indeed so. I've only used the seats, but ignoring the controversy about them being 2+2 (though I was able to contort myself into a comfortable-ish sleeping position better in a pair of 2+2 seats than I can in a single seat, and in my understanding it's never full out of Paddington so everyone can have a pair of seats if they wish) the refurb is of a very high quality indeed, probably the best Mk3 job I've seen of all. If the sleepers are as well-done they will basically be as new.
 
S

sleeper fan

On Moderation
Joined
5 Jun 2019
Messages
99
Butts I agree with you fully with you. The new stock prices are ridiculous. Travelled in first class last July to Fort William for just under £110 good value I thought not you are talking double that just for a standard double!. Am up in Inverness on June 28th and looked at the sleeper and saw the price(when the new stock was advertised) for two of us it was going to cost nearly £500 could stay, have breakfast and do a LNER first class upgrade to London for far less but then when they dropped the price because of the Mk5's delay I cancel the hotel and booked tow singles on the sleeper as they were at a reasonable price. £160 for two standards...still pricy but not bad I suppose in comparison to the new stock. Unfortunately I must say that if CS keep the Mk5 prices up too long they will be running near empty trains. Who wants to pay £200+ for a single cabin standard class...I love the sleeper but not at the new stocks price...glad to get one more old stock run despite there age they are nice and retro!
 
ashkeba

ashkeba

Established Member
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
2,171
Mainliner said:
However, I won’t continue to be a CS customer (despite liking and preferring rail travel) if the following reported faults are ongoing - late departures, inability to get a meal in the lounge for whatever reason, non-working shower or toilet, etc, all of which reduce the reason for using the service.
Click to expand...
I don't mind late departures much, as long as the station lounges are good enough, I'm kept informed and there's still somewhere to get food and drink. Failed toilets and late arrivals which are much harder to cope with.
 
JModulo

JModulo

Member
Joined
17 Nov 2013
Messages
524
Location
67A
Mainliner said:
To that end, are staff from the manufacturer and the subcontractors who supplied things like the toilets and showers currently working on the stock at their own cost at Wembley and other depots?
Click to expand...

Yes, there is contractors/fitters working on the stock during the day in between services which is what has caused the delay(s) to the inbound stock arriving from the depot on several occasions.
 
TimboM

TimboM

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2016
Messages
3,732
Norther Monkey said:
Serco, to a large extent driven by the Scottish Government's vision, may have a long term problem.
Unless they get this right soon, it appears that they've aimed (and priced tickets accordingly) for the luxury travel 'experience' market and can't (yet?) deliver. In doing so they've priced out many regular commuters who just wanted to maximise quality of life by travelling whilst they slept.
The legacy of poor online reviews (see TripAdvisor) left by disappointed customers could seriously affect the business moving forward.
Click to expand...
Transport Scotland cover 50% of franchise losses from April 2020-April 2022 then effectively all of them thereafter, so any "long term" problem won't really be Serco's.
 
N

Norther Monkey

Member
Joined
7 Aug 2011
Messages
245
Butts said:
Could it be that it ends up a "Vanity Project"
Would people rather still be paying £49 for First's 1st Class bargain berths in a clapped out but at least reasonably priced alternative to the far quicker "Air Alternative"?
Click to expand...

Yes. Largely because there often isn't a reasonably priced air alternative in the evening (there may be some unreasonably priced ones). In particular there is no evening air option from the Midlands or Northern England.
 
47271

47271

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2015
Messages
2,983
From what I hear the Lowlander is loading very well at the moment and with a very different clientele to before, my contact is reporting new groups of American, Japanese, Chinese and Korean tourists with enormous suitcases and photographing one another all over the train, completely absent until this year. Serco's doing something right. But it is the summer.

I'm no more convinced of Serco's business model than most on this thread but you can't blame them for their current approach if that's their strategy in the very early days of mk5 operation: high prices and an aggressive marketing strategy into key foreign markets.

The dog days of winter will be the test. Are they going to allow the trains to run near empty through an insistence on £200+ pricing, or are they going to meet the market? I have no idea what they're thinking on this but if I were them I would be trying to get away with the high prices until I'd learned that I couldn't. They'll soon know.

They also need to be sensible on how they handle Flexipass customers who are their bread and butter in the winter. That product currently sits at £155 per single journey with an 'introductory upgrade' to Club. That's pretty good value to buyers who are in the £200 per night London hotel category, so long as the train functions properly obviously, but if they let it float upwards much beyond £170 then that'll take them into the danger territory.

We'll see...
 
G

gingerheid

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2006
Messages
1,499
I suspect we know how this ends; it's exactly the same marketing strategy as BR had with the Mk3s (even down to claims like the smooth ride!).

They wait for the hype to die down and then go back to normal?
 
47271

47271

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2015
Messages
2,983
gingerheid said:
I suspect we know how this ends; it's exactly the same marketing strategy as BR had with the Mk3s (even down to claims like the smooth ride!).

They wait for the hype to die down and then go back to normal?
Click to expand...
I think you're probably right, but all told it is a vastly superior experience on what's gone before. Not having to trot down the corridor for a wee at 3am has got to be worth £20 more.

Not so sure on the smooth ride sadly. There's an awful lot of clatter from the bogies I believe (what is that, it's been described to me like a bag of enormous spanners under the floor, and I know what he means from experience of daytime trains?) and that isn't something that you get on mk3s unless they're knackered. Neither does the suspension deal particularly well with vertical movement. 'As quiet and smooth as a 385' is how it's been put. Hmm.
 
JModulo

JModulo

Member
Joined
17 Nov 2013
Messages
524
Location
67A
47271 said:
From what I hear the Lowlander is loading very well at the moment.
Click to expand...

Well yes, so the website would have you believe, however its running with a lot of rooms empty as spare 'just in case' the booked rooms aren't available due to issues. Hence why its quite difficult to book on the Lowlander just now.
 
47271

47271

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2015
Messages
2,983
JModulo said:
Well yes, so the website would have you believe, however its running with a lot of rooms empty as spare 'just in case' the booked rooms aren't available due to issues. Hence why its quite difficult to book on the Lowlander just now.
Click to expand...
To be fair I'm going by what passengers are telling me, the train is obviously busy, although I'm not denying that they're probably holding off cabins as well.
 
Highlandspring

Highlandspring

Established Member
Joined
14 Oct 2017
Messages
2,777
There's an interesting passing mention in the book "British Rail Mark 1 Coaches" by Keith Parkin that there was an eyewatering fares hike when the mk1 sleepers were first introduced on account of the more luxurious accomodation. Plus ça change I suppose...
 
WesternLancer

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
7,186
Highlandspring said:
There's an interesting passing mention in the book "British Rail Mark 1 Coaches" by Keith Parkin that there was an eyewatering fares hike when the mk1 sleepers were first introduced on account of the more luxurious accomodation. Plus ça change I suppose...
Click to expand...
well they were en suite as we know...... (chamber pots....):D
 
Bassman

Bassman

Member
Joined
14 Dec 2018
Messages
79
There is a significant change in tourism world wide. It is not unusual to have significant numbers of tourists looking for different experiences from many parts of the world, and these will use the sleeper as a high interest experience. As Airbnb hosts in Inverness, in the last two years, I amazed that independent travellers with means are coming from all over the world, and from places we would not expect i.e. from south America, eastern Europe and the middle and far east. The season is also lengthening from February to October along with Christmas. Serco certainly will capture this tourist market.

However as has been said, the sleeper originally and still should be a strategic transport link with the North and London ( In the absence of UK length High Speed Trains as in Japan and China, which clearly remove the need for slow overnight transport.)
As has been discussed on another link here the Sleeper and overnight trains are GREENER than any flight. A strategic national intention would be to reduce carbon footprint and alter taxation, subsidy and pricing to reflect reduced emissions and maximise the use and modernisation of our rail network.
 
Kendalian

Kendalian

Member
Joined
30 Mar 2016
Messages
249
Lowlander stock has only just arrived at Euston an hour late according to RTT.
So late boarding yet again, but fingers crossed away on time at 2350!
 
C

Chrism20

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2013
Messages
1,347
47271 said:
From what I hear the Lowlander is loading very well at the moment and with a very different clientele to before, my contact is reporting new groups of American, Japanese, Chinese and Korean tourists with enormous suitcases and photographing one another all over the train, completely absent until this year. Serco's doing something right. But it is the summer.

I'm no more convinced of Serco's business model than most on this thread but you can't blame them for their current approach if that's their strategy in the very early days of mk5 operation: high prices and an aggressive marketing strategy into key foreign markets.
Click to expand...

Tourism to Scotland is fast becoming a year round thing nowadays so no doubt they will be hoping for some of that to spill over into the winter.

One of the things that worries me about this strategy though is what happens if the pound starts to rise. At the moment for us to convert the rates are trash, however its the opposite for incoming tourists who are getting more £ for their dollar/yen etc.
 
TimboM

TimboM

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2016
Messages
3,732
Kendalian said:
Lowlander stock has only just arrived at Euston an hour late according to RTT.
So late boarding yet again, but fingers crossed away on time at 2350!
Click to expand...
The Highlander stock (5S95) was almost an hour late in - usual diagram is for the same driver to go back and bring in the Lowlander stock (5S96), so that'll be the most likely reason it was an hour late too... probably nothing to do with the Mk5s for a change.

92043 bringing the stock in with 92014 on rear for 1S26.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Top