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GWR Class 800

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Lozzy0603

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Do GWR or LNER retain any option to lengthen the 800s, 801s or 802s? By a rough calculation GWR could add tenth car to the nine car sets without extending too many platforms? (Not entirely familiar with East Coast intercity platform lengths) Obviously five car sets could be lengthened without much infrastructure impact, except for depot space?
Would the process be as easy as other recent MU lengthenings? Software upgrade and slot in another powered or unpowered car?
 
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JN114

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Splitting and Joining isn’t inherently problematic; done well (and I appreciate that is where things are falling down at present) the benefits far outweigh the disadvantages. But it’s relatively new to Western route, at least in modern times. We’ve run fixed formation long-distance services for 40+ years. But we’re not in the 1970s anymore. Cost and Efficiency are king. The bean counters and their consultants behind the IET procurement have done their maths; and arrived at the fleet balance we have. As an insider, we probably could do with more 9s and less 5s; and do away with the majority of portion working on long distance Cornish services. We probably should have looked closer at catering offer and other creature comforts onboard. But bottom line we are where we are. Now we have to make what we have work. If you practically want full length trains Plymouth - London; they’re going to have to be 5+5 splitting/joining at Plymouth. It isn’t practical to run all 9s to Penzance, nor is it practical to rip up Long Rock depot to make it suitable for 9 cars. If, (as I understand is being negotiated) Ponsandane sidings can be brought to an acceptable state then the goalposts may have moved somewhat. But we’re not there yet.

I accept it’s the old “jam tomorrow” argument, but the current timetable isn’t the ultimate or optimum deployment of the IET fleet. And it’s never going to work unless all involved get behind it and make the best of what we now have. Because what we have isn’t changing any time soon; and no amount of whining on an Internet is going to change that.
 

43096

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Splitting and Joining isn’t inherently problematic; done well (and I appreciate that is where things are falling down at present) the benefits far outweigh the disadvantages. But it’s relatively new to Western route, at least in modern times. We’ve run fixed formation long-distance services for 40+ years. But we’re not in the 1970s anymore. Cost and Efficiency are king. The bean counters and their consultants behind the IET procurement have done their maths; and arrived at the fleet balance we have. As an insider, we probably could do with more 9s and less 5s; and do away with the majority of portion working on long distance Cornish services. We probably should have looked closer at catering offer and other creature comforts onboard. But bottom line we are where we are. Now we have to make what we have work. If you practically want full length trains Plymouth - London; they’re going to have to be 5+5 splitting/joining at Plymouth. It isn’t practical to run all 9s to Penzance, nor is it practical to rip up Long Rock depot to make it suitable for 9 cars. If, (as I understand is being negotiated) Ponsandane sidings can be brought to an acceptable state then the goalposts may have moved somewhat. But we’re not there yet.

I accept it’s the old “jam tomorrow” argument, but the current timetable isn’t the ultimate or optimum deployment of the IET fleet. And it’s never going to work unless all involved get behind it and make the best of what we now have. Because what we have isn’t changing any time soon; and no amount of whining on an Internet is going to change that.
Given that 1 x 9-cars have roughly the same capacity as 2 x 5-cars, and the savings from having one less vehicle and two cabs from such a formation, is the current fleet really the optimal build that could have been made? Add in that IEP really stands for Incredibly Expensive Procurement, so the same 800 fleet could have been bought for less (and be less restrictive in utilisation) by going for a normal lease arrangement, the savings from that could have been added in to make more 9-cars justified while still resourcing the planned timetable.
 

43096

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For about the 25th time, if you use a 9-car set and there is a failure that means you get a cancellation instead. Is that your preference?
But we keep being told that having more cabs is too expensive, which is why Thameslink is 8 and 12 car fixed formations. Now you're telling us single units is a reliability risk. You can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.

We were also promised "Japanese levels of reliability" (which is turning out to be somewhat less than German levels of reliability) by ordering from (s)Hitachi and that the new trains were several squillion times more reliable than the old ones and would never break down...

Or is it all just more hot air from the GWR propaganda machine?
 

coppercapped

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Do GWR or LNER retain any option to lengthen the 800s, 801s or 802s? By a rough calculation GWR could add tenth car to the nine car sets without extending too many platforms? (Not entirely familiar with East Coast intercity platform lengths) Obviously five car sets could be lengthened without much infrastructure impact, except for depot space?
Would the process be as easy as other recent MU lengthenings? Software upgrade and slot in another powered or unpowered car?
Quite apart from issues of platform lengths in outlying parts of the GWR network and depot design which make such lengthening unlikely, GWR and LNER hold no options whatsoever for the length or fit-out of the trains issued to them under the IEP deals. The DfT contracted with Agility Trains West and Agility Trains East to supply sufficient rolling stock to operate a given number of diagrams each day.

The train operating companies have no influence in what they are issued with and not much in the pattern of operations. Indeed the extra fast Bristol services were mandated by the DfT and were not originally proposed by fGW/GWR. I first heard about them in June 2011 in a talk given by Stuart Baker, the DfT's 'Great Cartographer', at a IMechE meeting in London. So much for the original franchising concept of allowing TOCs to make decisions about timetabling because they are closest to the customer.

It is technically possible to lengthen the trains - which has been discussed to death in various post in this and other threads - but contractually this will not happen for the foreseeable future.
 

coppercapped

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But we keep being told that having more cabs is too expensive, which is why Thameslink is 8 and 12 car fixed formations. Now you're telling us single units is a reliability risk. You can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.

We were also promised "Japanese levels of reliability" (which is turning out to be somewhat less than German levels of reliability) by ordering from (s)Hitachi and that the new trains were several squillion times more reliable than the old ones and would never break down...

Or is it all just more hot air from the GWR propaganda machine?
It has been hot air from the DfT's propaganda machine since long before the Foster review of June 2010. The TOCs just have to go along with it and make the best of a bad job.
 

The Ham

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Jimm if you knew quite how badly portion working was going down here u wouldn't be going on with your snide comments. Do me a favour come down here and sample the trains for a few days and see what the situation is like on the ground, it isn't pretty I can assure u.
Whether or not 9 coaches are needed all day on Cornish services is of course debatable but frankly until things improve it is simply unacceptable to cause delays and inconvenience to so many journeys in the South West. Your Cotswold line promotion group wouldn't accept the performance down here so why should we????!!!

I've already asked, and or appears to have been missed so I'll ask again, other than the random fee a week which are reported how many portion working units are failing and how does this compare to the total number of services which split/join?

If it's <5% then it's not really a problem if it's >10% then there's a problem which needs some serious action taking. However if there's 2 splits and 2 joins a day then you'd need 3 failures a week to reach the >10% value.

Without the data you could be finding a problem where one doesn't really exist
 

Envoy

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Surely, what is needed is flexibility regarding the amount of rolling stock needed? By having fixed contracts for so many trains/coaches we could end up with a similar situation to that with the Voyagers:- ie. a fixed number of trains/coaches ordered that then turn out to be inadequate to meet demand. So, suppose demand grows from now on the GWR routes and no new stock is allowed to be added; we then end up with overcrowding and fares being raised to suppress demand. Is that what the Department for Transport really want - more traffic on the roads?
 

CharlesR

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Would it really cost loads more to run 9 car trains in Cornwall and do away with all the splitting chaos/cost, extra staff needed for 2 X 5 then splitting, and annoyed passengers because some (not all) 5s get overcrowded?

Thinking about this realistically, yes, it would cost loads more to run 9 cars to Devon and Cornwall. Not only are they required on the Cotswold line at peak times but they are needed to Cheltenham as they cannot take 10 cars to Gloucester. A fair few end up on Cardiff/Swansea/Bristol services.

My point is is that soon, Cheltenham won’t need all these 9 cars running during the day and will instead have five cars running hourly. If we go to the original order, the nice cars were electric therefore only intended to go to Bristol/Cardiff/Swansea. Assuming this, then they should somehow be able to run these services with nine cars. 5 cars will be being use for the additional Bristol services.

8x extra class 802s were ordered and I wouldn’t be surprised if this lot ends up down to Devon and Cornwall quite often sending 802s up the Cotswold lines.

The point that I am trying to send across is that splitting and joining isn’t meant to be a difficult task and practical. Again, closely monitoring the GWR twitter page no one seems to be complaining about it, unless it’s delaying the service. If it doesn’t work then in the long run I don’t see why they won’t run 10 cars down there, but at the moment it mainly does work...
 

Goldfish62

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It’s a matter of practicality.

Departures off Long Rock in the morning:-

5A75 9-802, works 0505 London
5C53 4x 2-150, splits for the 0519 Truro (4) and the 0658 Ives (4)
5E12 4-HST, works 0600 Exeter
5A77 5-802, works 0541 London
5A79 9-802, works 0647 London
5S42 5-221, works 0635 Glasgow
5P60 4-HST, works 0730 Plymouth
5A81 5-802, works 0741 London
5S47 5-221, works 0837 Glasgow
5A82 5-802, works 0900 London

The 9 car for 5A75 is formed off the last arrival, blocks everything else in and cannot be serviced. It has to go back out on the first departure.

That leaves just one 9 car “available” for the remaining departures. Of those I’d say the 0647 is much busier through Cornwall than the 0900. There isn’t room on Long Rock for either a 3rd 9 car (there isn’t really room for 2), or an additional set to make the 0900 a 10 car - there just aren’t the roads on the depot, it’s not Old Oak Common.

So options - you could, theoretically, run a 5 (or a 9) down from Plymouth to attach to the 0900 - as happens with the 1000. But it would have to run down ahead of the sleeper, which would cut into engineering time, engineering time which becomes more critical as the service becomes more intense on the Cornish mainline. It also relies on there being a set available at Plymouth, with minimum contracted down periods on depots for the 80x fleet, I’m not sure there’s an early enough arrival onto Laira to get a set out to run down ahead of the sleeper for the 0900.

Or you could leave a set in the platform at Penzance for the 0541, making more room on the depot - but you’d have to get that set to Penzance somehow and you’d effectively lose a platform while it was stabled there.

At the end of the day the 0900 is busy through Cornwall, but let’s not over-egg its popularity. It isn’t leaving passengers behind as a 5 car. And if, as suggested above, efforts are concentrated on fixing the problem - namely issues coupling at Plymouth; then long term there shouldn’t be issues of it running 5v10 from Plymouth.

In an ideal world, if there were more 9s in the fleet; and if more 9s could be stabled down at Penzance then yes, more of the Cornish services would and should be 9s. But that isn’t where we are. The best has to be made of the fleet that exists. And while it may seem like Cornwall gets a raw deal with portion working compared to the North Cotswolds or Swansea - which equally don’t “deserve” all of the full-length trains they get - the difference is Plymouth station. Neither Oxford nor Cardiff are particularly conducive to portion working, with only 1 and 2 full length up platforms respectively for trains to attach in; and a much, much more intensive service off those platforms. The more relaxed pace of Cornish train services means a huge station like Plymouth really isn’t used to its full potential - which incidentally was designed to handle portion working of through trains to/from Cornwall.

Although the 800s have been in service for 18 months; portion working at Plymouth was much later to the party; the West of England services being the last to come over from HST operation. It happens day in, day out at Paddington with very few issues - anecdotally 2 or 3 a week from dozens upon dozens of coupling and uncoupling events there. The issues seem very much centred on Plymouth unfortunately. But it used to be awful at Swansea, with the daily couple/uncouple of the Carmarthen frequently failing. Hitachi and the local drivers team worked together to iron out what were train-borne issues; what was drivers’ technique and what was other factors - and now I can’t recall the last coupling/uncoupling failure at Swansea. It’ll get better with time; we just need to all be on the same page.
Interesting post. Thanks for all the detail.

Surely stabling one train overnight at Penzance Station wouldn't create too much of an issue. You'd still have one platform available for 9/10 car IETs and two others for everything else. As the 0505 is a nine car it could be this one that's stabled at the station.

Stabling trains overnight in stations is common. For example at Waterloo because there's not enough room at Clapham Yard or Wimbledon.
 

irish_rail

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I've already asked, and or appears to have been missed so I'll ask again, other than the random fee a week which are reported how many portion working units are failing and how does this compare to the total number of services which split/join?

If it's <5% then it's not really a problem if it's >10% then there's a problem which needs some serious action taking. However if there's 2 splits and 2 joins a day then you'd need 3 failures a week to reach the >10% value.

Without the data you could be finding a problem where one doesn't really exist
Well I've already quoted it, but I'll do so again. According to a manager at Plymouth who has been recording it there is an approximate 75 percent success rate on couplings so 3 out of 4 are working. Pretty abysmal really at this stage and there are still I think only 3 trains a day that couple up. Heaven help us come December when it's all trains....
 

Bletchleyite

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Well I've already quoted it, but I'll do so again. According to a manager at Plymouth who has been recording it there is an approximate 75 percent success rate on couplings so 3 out of 4 are working. Pretty abysmal really at this stage and there are still I think only 3 trains a day that couple up. Heaven help us come December when it's all trains....

That is very poor - you would expect at least something like 99.5% (100% never happens). What is the cause?
 

Goldfish62

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Surely, what is needed is flexibility regarding the amount of rolling stock needed? By having fixed contracts for so many trains/coaches we could end up with a similar situation to that with the Voyagers:- ie. a fixed number of trains/coaches ordered that then turn out to be inadequate to meet demand. So, suppose demand grows from now on the GWR routes and no new stock is allowed to be added; we then end up with overcrowding and fares being raised to suppress demand. Is that what the Department for Transport really want - more traffic on the roads?
Trying to work out what the DfT wants would defeat the world's best minds I'm sure.
 

irish_rail

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That is very poor - you would expect at least something like 99.5% (100% never happens). What is the cause?
The causes are extremely varied. To give an example a points failure at laira yesterday was causing an issue with 5 car sets coming off. Laira simply can't cope with the amount of moves occurring quite frankly and we ain't seen nothing yet.

First "coupler" of the day today ,1a81 and it's going to be 5 vice 10 throughout. Should be extremely cosy I'd say, always a very busy train that one......thank heaven the first two Penzance departures today were 9 cars and thus running smoothly .
 

Dai Corner

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Surely, what is needed is flexibility regarding the amount of rolling stock needed? By having fixed contracts for so many trains/coaches we could end up with a similar situation to that with the Voyagers:- ie. a fixed number of trains/coaches ordered that then turn out to be inadequate to meet demand. So, suppose demand grows from now on the GWR routes and no new stock is allowed to be added; we then end up with overcrowding and fares being raised to suppress demand. Is that what the Department for Transport really want - more traffic on the roads?

I think the theory is that an Open Access Operator would recognise the opportunity, obtain some trains, negotiate paths and run additional services but without unfairly abstracting revenue from the franchised operator.
 

The Ham

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Well I've already quoted it, but I'll do so again. According to a manager at Plymouth who has been recording it there is an approximate 75 percent success rate on couplings so 3 out of 4 are working. Pretty abysmal really at this stage and there are still I think only 3 trains a day that couple up. Heaven help us come December when it's all trains....

Does that 75% success rate mean that 1/4 services don't run (or run short) or that 1/4 services have to have a second attempt, if the latter does that always result in a delay?

As there's a big difference between the two, in that the first is 25% of all services run as 5 coach units, whilst the latter could be that 95% of services run as timetabled.

Infrastructure problems (such as the points issue mentioned in another post) although need fixing and impact on the reliability aren't an issue with the trains or their length, yes they do throw up the issues faster but they would have happened anyway.
 

irish_rail

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Does that 75% success rate mean that 1/4 services don't run (or run short) or that 1/4 services have to have a second attempt, if the latter does that always result in a delay?
As there's a big difference between the two, in that the first is 25% of all services run as 5 coach units, whilst the latter could be that 95% of services run as timetabled.

Infrastructure problems (such as the points issue mentioned in another post) although need fixing and impact on the reliability aren't an issue with the trains or their length, yes they do throw up the issues faster but they would have happened anyway.
That's 75 percent depart on time. Pretty in -defensible really. And my point from the start is the complexity of having to rely on depots, the trains , staff, the infrastructure all add up to giving unacceptable amounts of risk in comparison to the money saved (if any) by portion working.
 

irish_rail

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Also i reckon if 25 percent of trains were being delayed at somewhere like oxford or indeed parts of the north, due to coupling and splitting I'm pretty sure there would of been questions in parliament by now. Unfortunately down here we tend to just get what we are given and count ourselves lucky we have trains at all!!
 

Dai Corner

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That's 75 percent depart on time. Pretty in -defensible really. And my point from the start is the complexity of having to rely on depots, the trains , staff, the infrastructure all add up to giving unacceptable amounts of risk in comparison to the money saved (if any) by portion working.

Three trains a day are booked to couple up at Plymouth.
Three quarters depart on time.

Less than one train a day on average is delayed with a coupling issue at the moment then. That's not ideal but is acceptable in PPM terms if they eventually arrive at Paddington on time. It does need to be sorted before the operation becomes the norm though.
 

Clarence Yard

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Interesting post. Thanks for all the detail.

Surely stabling one train overnight at Penzance Station wouldn't create too much of an issue. You'd still have one platform available for 9/10 car IETs and two others for everything else. As the 0505 is a nine car it could be this one that's stabled at the station.

Stabling trains overnight in stations is common. For example at Waterloo because there's not enough room at Clapham Yard or Wimbledon.

Stabling an EMU at a station is somewhat different to dealing with a 9 car diesel intercity train that needs full servicing at night. There are 5 SX 802 starters off Penzance each morning so there isn’t enough capacity, as we have previously discussed. Ponsondane is the potential answer but putting back the sidings there will cost money.

The minimum number of sets that require lengthening if you wanted to go all 9 on the West Country services is 12 and if you want to include a bun truck that minimum rises to 14.

It doesn’t make much difference if the number of joins failing at Plymouth is 5%, 10% or 25%. One is one too many. There is a triangulation exercise going on now, matching the infrastructure, the individual units and the driver experience to analyse where the problems really are.

I really don’t buy that Laira can’t cope with depot on and off moves. If the infrastructure is faulty, then it needs fixing. If the driving resources are not there, then that needs fixing too. It isn’t as if it is a depot that has a heavy on and off workload, for goodness sake.
 

northernbelle

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By that logic why are virgin not running pairs of 5 car pendolinos from Euston to Glasgow...

Because the capacity is needed from end to end.

Virgin Trains are, however, running pairs of 5 car Voyagers out of Euston to the likes of Holyhead where the opportunity to split them is very useful.

Splitting trains is actually quite common- sounds like GWR needs to catch up with the rest of the network in this regard.
 

jimm

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Jimm if you knew quite how badly portion working was going down here u wouldn't be going on with your snide comments. Do me a favour come down here and sample the trains for a few days and see what the situation is like on the ground, it isn't pretty I can assure u.
Whether or not 9 coaches are needed all day on Cornish services is of course debatable but frankly until things improve it is simply unacceptable to cause delays and inconvenience to so many journeys in the South West. Your Cotswold line promotion group wouldn't accept the performance down here so why should we????!!!

Performance on the Cotswold Line, both in terms of punctuality and outright cancellations, was dismal from the late autumn of 2017 through to about this time last year, due to a combination of factors that were discussed here and elsewhere at the time. And guess what, anyone trying to use the trains wasn't exactly thrilled about that state of affairs and the resulting delays and inconvenience.

Since then, punctuality and overall performance on the line has improved to the point where it is now currently better than it has been in years and services are spending lots of time hanging around in stations waiting for their booked departure times, as the IETs comfortably beat the old HST sectional running times.

http://trains.im/ppmhistorical/GW/37/monthly

Anyone reading what you have posted above might think things in the South West were in catastrophic disarray, but looking again at trains.im, it appears that punctuality and reliability on services between London and the West of England is also a whole lot prettier at present than for much of last year and long before that

http://trains.im/ppmhistorical/GW/39/monthly

I might also note that doom-laden posts about the coupling of IETs at Swansea seem to have all but disappeared, after much huffing and puffing in their early months on the Carmarthen services. I wonder whether the same might happen at Plymouth when staff get more used to the operation and Network Rail does some work on the track in the station?
 

Grumbler

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Three trains a day are booked to couple up at Plymouth.
Three quarters depart on time.

Less than one train a day on average is delayed with a coupling issue at the moment then. That's not ideal but is acceptable in PPM terms if they eventually arrive at Paddington on time. It does need to be sorted before the operation becomes the norm though.
Portion working has been a feature of the railways for donkeys' years. The GWR was expert in slipping coaches on the move, not that I'd advocate bringing that back! But other lines (notably in the old Southern Region) seem able to join and divide trains with no trouble.
 

yorkie

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The intention of this thread isn't to have a "master" thread about anything to do with 800s; if anyone wishes to discuss timetabling, diagramming or anything else please use the appropriate section.

Please help avoid this thread becoming too unwieldy by creating new threads (or using other existing ones, where appropriate) for anything which warrants a thread of its own.

This thread will probably be locked soon anyway as it was to discuss the construction, delivery and introduction of the new trains and not for ongoing matters.

Thanks for your understanding :)
 

Mordac

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Not to mention the early posts about the mountain between coaches with engines and those without.
 
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