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Disruption at Skipton 12/06/19
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Kendalian
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Still nothing moving going by RTT.
Northern website saying no time available for resolution, which doesn't sound good at all.
Bizarrely, they only show it as minor disruption, not severe!
What a day, sleeper canned at Stafford, WCML shut, ECML shut, it's like the day the railway stopped. I don't want to tempt fate by asking what's next to go wrong!!
Northern website saying no time available for resolution, which doesn't sound good at all.
Bizarrely, they only show it as minor disruption, not severe!
What a day, sleeper canned at Stafford, WCML shut, ECML shut, it's like the day the railway stopped. I don't want to tempt fate by asking what's next to go wrong!!
Indeed - I'm still here en route to Leeds. Apparently another EMU (2H50 presumably) is attempting to push the failed unit back in to Skipton.
My girlfriend was supposed to be on the 17:41 Leeds-Skipton as far as Bingley. Total chaos at Leeds station. Platforms dangerously overcrowded and staff unable to tell people anything. As there was so little information she eventually boarded the 18:45 Leeds-London Kings Cross and I drove all the way from Bingley to Wakefield Westgate to pick her up and take her home. Quite what Northern have to to do be shut down once and for all I don't know. All I do know is that they're making Brexit look like a smooth and well managed process.
trainmananthon
Member
They also cancelled some of the Morecambe and the last two Carlisle services. The last one should’ve been my train home from work....
I believe 333010 failed on the crossing from the down line into platform 1 (2H48). An attempt was made to couple another unit (2H50) and shunt it forward but all that did was transfer the fault to the rescue unit. After I think not much over an hour they took the decision to evacuate to the nearest access point only 7-8 meters away.
I believe 333010 failed on the crossing from the down line into platform 1 (2H48). An attempt was made to couple another unit (2H50) and shunt it forward but all that did was transfer the fault to the rescue unit. After I think not much over an hour they took the decision to evacuate to the nearest access point only 7-8 meters away.
ASharpe
Member
I think I caught the last train to depart Leeds when the disruption first started. The 1642 was cancelled but now the 48 to Carlisle is strengthened to 4 cars I was happy to catch it instead. We were sat for about 40 minutes outside Shipley before they decided to reverse the train at platform 2 at Shipley back to Leeds.
It seems on the Airedale line given the frequency of services and lack of crossovers it's easy for trains to get stuck waiting for a platform during disruption.
It seems on the Airedale line given the frequency of services and lack of crossovers it's easy for trains to get stuck waiting for a platform during disruption.
Yes, total chaos. Incredibly poor customer service staff from Northern, guards asked people to leave the trains (the one I was on in p3) so it could shunt out to allow another southbound service in to disembark - go over to platform 2 and speak to the staff there was the instruction.
Staff over there useless - "We just do the ticket gates".
Around 5.30 it flashed up on the screens there would be a bus to Shipley at 6.05 so everyone piles through said ticket gates (which hadn't been opened so people scrabbling around for tickets).
At 1825 two coaches appeared from an operator in Burnley. Everyone rushed to them, 10 min chat beteeen Northern staff and coach drivers, both going to Keighley (not Shipley) one direct, one all stops. Lady sat next to me on the coach heading for Carnforth. Suggested she got off the coach before it left as Keighley was the wrong direction for her.
Got to Keighley, no Northern staff to assist people not familiar with the station, ran to platform 1 just as a Leeds bound train pulled in (which, you guessed it, had just come from Shipley!). Train wasn't held to let the remaining coach passengers get on.
Absolute Shambles, and to cancel the remaining Lancaster and Carlisles is inexcusable when there were units stabled at the north end of Shipton to work them (the 144 I'd come down from Lancaster on and a 158 that'd come down from Carlisle) and pelnty of drivers/guards sat around too.
A number of reasons...
- Absolutely no accurate information was forthcoming from staff so she didn't know where to go.
- Platforms were so crowded that she couldn't get anywhere near where I said the train she needed should be (I was on the other end of the phone with Realtime Trains on my laptop).
- Information on Realtime Trains was at odds with what appeared to be happening in the station, so I was unable to inform her adequately.
- One train she actually boarded on the advice of staff then turned out to be for Ilkley so she got off again and gave up trusting what little information was available.
- She was starting to feel claustrophobic and unwell in the crowds so I told her to get to Wakefield and I'd pick her up (I didn't much fancy driving into the centre of Leeds).
bigbaldbruce
Member
You were on the same train as me, and I agree, a total shambles. I couldn’t get on the coach to Keighley I was about 4 from the front of the queue when it was full. I was just on the verge of phoning my son to drive from Teesside to pick me up when seconds after the coach left the staff shouted there was a train going to Leeds from platform 4. Which it did almost immediately. Shame the staff couldn’t have shouted out 2 minutes earlier and saved you and the others the coach ride and inconvenience.
Open Train Times maps can be good to see which trains are where. Traksy has more coverage but not as detailed.
I was also caught up in the delays and am now on a TPE train due to missing my connection (no ticket check anyway as usual, but I did ask the Guard if I could use a Northern Only ticket and this was agreed). There was also a member of staff at Skipton who was very good. I'm not surprised to hear of chaos at Leeds.
Maybe someone from Northern can justify this as on the face of it, it seems odd.
Northern are absolutely terrible with keeping people informed during disruption, the default seems to be shove a post on @northernassist Twitter and job done, you can't blame the front line staff really when they're receiving sod all information from control!
Personally if I was going as far as Keighley from Leeds the Transdev 60 is a decent backup but probably quite busy as it is at that time of the evening I suppose
Personally if I was going as far as Keighley from Leeds the Transdev 60 is a decent backup but probably quite busy as it is at that time of the evening I suppose
ASharpe
Member
I felt a bit sorry for the guard on my train. She had no information from control or even access to publicly available information most of us passengers had.
Tocs need to be clearer in their communications about what the problem is, what they are doing about it, and say when they will publish the next substantial update.
Tocs need to be clearer in their communications about what the problem is, what they are doing about it, and say when they will publish the next substantial update.
Just for future reference, going to Bradford Interchange is a much better option (though the trains were, I imagine, heavily overcrowded).
Yes (it was done, says RTT) and no respectively.
Bantamzen
Established Member
Indeed, plus it gives the additional option of using the regular 662 bus as far as Keighley in the case of long disruptions.
Trains used to turn round at Keighley back in the day, so it's certainly possible. There's a set of points near the level crossing at Kildwick, so it's physically possible to turn a train round there, if unlikely for logistical reasons.
That did cross our minds during the exchanges we had as we tried to extricate her from the chaos, but the platforms were so overcrowded she wasn't confident she'd even manage to get on a train heading remotely the right way, so I decided to invoke a plan which would put us in control and give us a definite idea of when she'd be home rather than rely on the unknown.
The screenshot below contains a signalling diagram from traksy.uk, showing the points at Keighley enabling trains to turn around - the solid circles are normal signals, the hollowed out circles are shunt signals:
Dren Ahmeti
Member
And Leeds North West workstation in person shows shunt signals L4544 on the Down Shipley Main and L4543 on the Up Shipley Main that can be used!
Likewise at Kildwick MCB-CCTV (on the approach to Steeton and Silsden), L4546 signal on the Down and L4545 on the Up allows movements between both lines.
underbank
Established Member
I find it unfathomable that communication is so poor these days considering all the technology that is available in our pockets. How can CS front line staff not know what's going on? Why aren't they being told real time information? Why isn't up to date relevant information put on the facebook and twitter pages? It seems that every time there are major problems, whether on the roads, rail, airports, etc., information is generally sporadic and poor.
Just look at the Grenfell tragedy. There were senior fire officers running around with scraps of paper, trapped residents only getting proper information by phone calls with friends/family outside, the control room not having the faintest idea what was going on at the tower because informative messages weren't being sent back.
It seems the more communication options we have, the less we actually communicate.
Just look at the Grenfell tragedy. There were senior fire officers running around with scraps of paper, trapped residents only getting proper information by phone calls with friends/family outside, the control room not having the faintest idea what was going on at the tower because informative messages weren't being sent back.
It seems the more communication options we have, the less we actually communicate.
Thank you for the above replies re ability to turn round at Keighley and Kildwick. I was aware of the pointwork there but not sure about the overhead wires.
Reversing at Kildwick (OHLE permitting) would have allowed a service for passengers to Steeton and Silsden, and from where Skipton is a relatively easy journey by road (for those arranging lifts/taxis etc).
A station at Kildwick would be even better of course.
Reversing at Kildwick (OHLE permitting) would have allowed a service for passengers to Steeton and Silsden, and from where Skipton is a relatively easy journey by road (for those arranging lifts/taxis etc).
A station at Kildwick would be even better of course.
Satellite view gives the impression that Kildwick crossover isn't wired (happy to be corrected!) but it's an awkward place to turn a train anyway.
ASharpe
Member
Looks wired on Streetview. https://goo.gl/maps/CVuPEjPRfcpTwEpr5
I was a bit surprised at how long it took before they started turning back trains. Once they start stacking up it should be obvious that they were not all going to get to Skipton and then reverse back out in a sensible time.
I was involved in this situation.
A few pointers for the future based on this topic.
Yes trains can be turned at Kildwick crossover in both directions. The question though has to be asked if it is sensible at that time of day. It's not just about train passengers is it. Kildwick crossing is a total bottleneck for road traffic, and turning trains there would lead to some very dangerous conditions on the A629 duel carriageway.
The communication from Northern as per usual was beyond poor. It is clear that lessons are just not being learned. That said, some passengers need to start helping themselves also and not expect to be wet nursed. We can argue the toss about rights and 'I've bought a ticket' until we are blue in the face, but if you are sat at a station and the train isn't going, how long are you going to sit there?
I'm trying to be objective here, but trying to get the guard of a service stranded to offer something he can't is pointless. I understand why people do this, they think that getting all bolshy they can somehow control the situation, well they can't. And it is beyond stupid when there is a bus stop just 250 yards away where a bus will have got you home in 20 minutes, Instead they sit there demanding we put on a replacement bus that could take hours to organise.
From my point of view I will always offer the best advice based on my considerable experience. If someone decides to ignore that advice, I have nothing else to offer them.
A few pointers for the future based on this topic.
Yes trains can be turned at Kildwick crossover in both directions. The question though has to be asked if it is sensible at that time of day. It's not just about train passengers is it. Kildwick crossing is a total bottleneck for road traffic, and turning trains there would lead to some very dangerous conditions on the A629 duel carriageway.
The communication from Northern as per usual was beyond poor. It is clear that lessons are just not being learned. That said, some passengers need to start helping themselves also and not expect to be wet nursed. We can argue the toss about rights and 'I've bought a ticket' until we are blue in the face, but if you are sat at a station and the train isn't going, how long are you going to sit there?
I'm trying to be objective here, but trying to get the guard of a service stranded to offer something he can't is pointless. I understand why people do this, they think that getting all bolshy they can somehow control the situation, well they can't. And it is beyond stupid when there is a bus stop just 250 yards away where a bus will have got you home in 20 minutes, Instead they sit there demanding we put on a replacement bus that could take hours to organise.
From my point of view I will always offer the best advice based on my considerable experience. If someone decides to ignore that advice, I have nothing else to offer them.
bigbaldbruce
Member
Sorry, I live and work about 100 miles from Skipton. Forgive me for not being familiar with the local bus service.
ASharpe
Member
I live just a few miles down the line in Shipley, we get a half hourly single deck bus to and from Leeds. It has no chance of taking all the passengers on a 4 car EMU. The reason for the poor bus service is that the train is usually so much better.
But maybe in North Yorkshire the train is a lot less loaded and the bus service better.
If the level crossing signaling doesn't allow for the road to be opened while a train is turned around that seems a bit of an oversight.
Hopefully a proper turn back facility a Keighley will soon arrive and will give additional options.
Bantamzen
Established Member
The 60 (or 760 as used to be) was once a double decker service generally. There are still some that run as such, but in times of disruption the 60 whilst the direct service for the Aire Valley is probably the worst choice for Leeds. The last time the Aire seriously broke it's banks, I caught one of the first 760s out of Shipley & it took over 2.5 hours to crawl into Leeds. Even on a good day, transit between Shipley & Leeds can be anywhere from 45 minutes to well over an hour and a half. Its usually much quicker to head into Bradford & catch a train or the X6 onwards. Or in my case these days, shrug my shoulders, hook my works lappy up yo my WiFi & work from home!
underbank
Established Member
How would passengers know that if they weren't regular local bus users? Perhaps that's what the train staff should have been telling people???
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