Caledonian Sleeper

option · 21 Jun 2019

tago said:
Lowland sleeper to Edinburgh cancelled tonight. Serco claiming they contacted all passengers (who booked direct) 12 hours ago, which is a lie.

Passengers are supposed to get on the 06:15 from KX (no offer of accommodation) or apparently there may or may not be a bus.

Passengers unsurprisingly less than happy.

At some point this complete non-provision of the service will end up in court.
They are not just offering a journey from A to B, they are also offering accommodation.

RailUK Forums

adrock1976 · 21 Jun 2019

Not sure if best posted in here or on the Mk V stock in the Traction & Rolling Stock section as there is a bit of an overlap.

From what I have gathered over the last week or so, we seem to have:

1) platform staff at Euston keeping passengers in the dark
2) showers that do not drain the water properly
3) the emergency brakes are maybe too soon to apply and too hard when they are activated, causing wheel flats
4) passengers being asked to share even though Serco have done away with that

But most of all, the thing that really astonishes me is:

5) the onboard train computer unable to do basic arithmetic when coupling/uncoupling coaches.

Who exactly signed the Mk Vs off for normal passenger service? I totally despair as how the country has ended up in the terrible state it is in nowadays with even the basics cannot be got right first time.

MrEd · 21 Jun 2019

adrock1976 said:
Not sure if best posted in here or on the Mk V stock in the Traction & Rolling Stock section as there is a bit of an overlap.

From what I have gathered over the last week or so, we seem to have:

1) platform staff at Euston keeping passengers in the dark
2) showers that do not drain the water properly
3) the emergency brakes are maybe too soon to apply and too hard when they are activated, causing wheel flats
4) passengers being asked to share even though Serco have done away with that

But most of all, the thing that really astonishes me is:

5) the onboard train computer unable to do basic arithmetic when coupling/uncoupling coaches.

Who exactly signed the Mk Vs off for normal passenger service? I totally despair as how the country has ended up in the terrible state it is in nowadays with even the basics cannot be got right first time.

The Mk5 issues clearly need to be sorted, but the sharing of berths is only on the Mk2/Mk3 sets at times of desperation, when the Mk2 seated coach has failed and there is no other way of accommodating the displaced passengers. This will not be an issue when Mk5s are extended to all routes (although the Mk5s may bring problems of their own when introduced on the Highlander).

VT 390 · 21 Jun 2019

MrEd said:
The Mk5 issues clearly need to be sorted, but the sharing of berths is only on the Mk2/Mk3 sets at times of desperation, when the Mk2 seated coach has failed and there is no other way of accommodating the displaced passengers. This will not be an issue when Mk5s are extended to all routes (although the Mk5s may bring problems of their own when introduced on the Highlander).

When you say it is only on the old stock that people have been sharing rooms is the only when seated passengers are moved out the seated coach not for people who have booked rooms in the first place?

MrEd · 21 Jun 2019

Kendalian said:
On a separate note, what's the latest thoughts on whether CS will be able to launch the Mk5's on the Highlander on 7th July?
With problems yet again last night at Carstairs, personally I think they would be crazy to launch the more complex Highlander when basic issues haven't been sorted out (let alone the snagging type issues).
Bit of a no win though, as if they delay the launch again, guests will not be happy and the press will be critical of yet another delay!

The rock and the hard place come to mind. If it were down to me, I’d want to ensure that the Mk5s were working reliably (and consistently reliably) on the Lowlander before they were introduced onto the more complex Highlander; if this meant delaying their introduction, so be it. Unfortunately, this may mean more poor PR for CS, but it may be better than losing face if the new stock turns out to be unreliable on the Highlander due to insufficient testing. I certainly would not put my life savings on seeing Mk5s on the Highlander before at least August.

trebor79 · 21 Jun 2019

There's a lot of hyperbole on this thread.

As someone who has actually used a Mk5 shower, there is no problem with the water draining. You do stand in a puddle whilst showering but it does not overflow into the room and it drains a few seconds after turning the shower off.
Unsurprisingly the old stock is unreliable. Obviously suffering from a lack of maintenance and many of the spare vehicles being scrapped already. I don't think I'd have made those decisions if I was in charge but I guess they seemed like the right decisions at the time.
The wheel flat issue is unfortunate and not like it hasn't happened on other stock. I'm sure most of us have travelled on trains that have had flats, I know I certainly have.

No doubt there's a lot of annoyed customers at the moment, and Serco have a big mountain to climb in terms of credibility and the reality matching the offer. But it's not like the sleeper is going to permanently disappear because of a spate of problems.

MrEd · 21 Jun 2019

VT 390 said:
When you say it is only on the old stock that people have been sharing rooms is the only when seated passengers are moved out the seated coach not for people who have booked rooms in the first place?

I don’t work for CS, but I would assume that they would only make those passengers share who had been displaced from the seats. Passengers with berth tickets are not allowed to share with strangers, and this policy is routinely upheld. CS would be very careful not to make passengers with berth tickets share as they’ve bought those tickets on the ground that they guarantee solo occupancy. Also, seated passengers often have to be moved to berths en route, which could disturb passengers who were already sleeping.

mralexn · 21 Jun 2019

Me again with the twitter posts,

Apparently passengers this evening on the southbound Fort William portion are having to travel to Edinburgh via coach due to the delay on the inward stock earlier on this morning / afternoon.

Norther Monkey · 21 Jun 2019

trebor79 said:
There's a lot of hyperbole on this thread.

As someone who has actually used a Mk5 shower, there is no problem with the water draining. You do stand in a puddle whilst showering but it does not overflow into the room and it drains a few seconds after turning the shower off.
Unsurprisingly the old stock is unreliable. Obviously suffering from a lack of maintenance and many of the spare vehicles being scrapped already. I don't think I'd have made those decisions if I was in charge but I guess they seemed like the right decisions at the time.
The wheel flat issue is unfortunate and not like it hasn't happened on other stock. I'm sure most of us have travelled on trains that have had flats, I know I certainly have.

No doubt there's a lot of annoyed customers at the moment, and Serco have a big mountain to climb in terms of credibility and the reality matching the offer. But it's not like the sleeper is going to permanently disappear because of a spate of problems.

I'm not sure it's all hyperbole. Last nights Highlander contained a lot of annoyed and angry passengers (I, on the other hand was delighted with a 'free' berth). It appears this has been a regular occurrence recently and online reviews reflect this.

TimboM · 21 Jun 2019

Grandnat said:
There was one new CS coach outside Craigentinny Wheel Lathe today. Do t know if there were any inside.

Coach 15333 there on its own for tyre-turning.
It was one of the seven that spent a few days at Longsight for, erm, tyre-turning...

Bletchleyite · 21 Jun 2019

VT 390 said:
When you say it is only on the old stock that people have been sharing rooms is the only when seated passengers are moved out the seated coach not for people who have booked rooms in the first place?

I believe that's correct - it's the seated passengers who are sharing.

TimboM · 21 Jun 2019

trebor79 said:
Unsurprisingly the old stock is unreliable. Obviously suffering from a lack of maintenance and many of the spare vehicles being scrapped already.

It's quite the opposite - the ageing stock has required a huge amount of maintenance and spend to keep it creaking along at 35-40 years old. It's the main reason the delayed introduction of the Mk5s has seen Serco's losses significantly increase and why there's been the rush to get the Mk5s out when not 100%. Do not confuse very old stock not being in tip-top condition with a lack of maintenance.

8 of a fleet of 75 vehicles (all needing major repair/exam) have been scrapped. Both Lowlander and Highlander were still being operated with the old stock after these were taken out of service. Wouldn't exactly describe that as many of the spares having been scrapped - particularly bearing in mind coaches needing major exams/repair wouldn't be available or spare anyway...

Bletchleyite · 21 Jun 2019

TimboM said:
It's quite the opposite - the ageing stock has required a huge amount of maintenance and spend to keep it creaking along at 35-40 years old. It's the main reason the delayed introduction of the Mk5s has seen Serco's losses significantly increase and they rush to get the Mk5s out. Do not confuse very old stock not being in tip-top condition with a lack of maintenance.

Probably true of the Mk2s, but GWR operate a reliable service using their Mk3s. You do get the occasional HST/80x sub, but it's not that common.

option · 21 Jun 2019

trebor79 said:
There's a lot of hyperbole on this thread.
No doubt there's a lot of annoyed customers at the moment, and Serco have a big mountain to climb in terms of credibility and the reality matching the offer. But it's not like the sleeper is going to permanently disappear because of a spate of problems.

death spiral
a situation that keeps getting worse and that is likely to end badly, with great harm or damage being caused

mirodo · 21 Jun 2019

Looks like they've been listening with regards to lounge provision (from the Cal Sleeper Twitter account:

Service Update, Fort William-Euston: In addition to arrangements with the Jury's Inn*, the LNER 1st Class Lounge within Waverley Station will remain open, with both facilities available until the estimated boarding time of 01:15.

*Free tea & coffee

Bletchleyite · 21 Jun 2019

trebor79 said:
No doubt there's a lot of annoyed customers at the moment, and Serco have a big mountain to climb in terms of credibility and the reality matching the offer. But it's not like the sleeper is going to permanently disappear because of a spate of problems.

You are clearly more confident than me.

If this goes on much longer (certainly if it goes on to the point hardly anyone uses it), I can entirely see a Fyra-like situation happening. Serco/Transport Scotland call CAF on breach of contract and return the stock for CAF to do whatever they feel like with and the service is permanently ended.

CS do not have the luxury LNR have that even if they are operating a uselessly poor service at the moment (which LNR are) the London commuters will keep on coughing up because there is no viable other option.

(I suppose a "third option" would be to refurb the Mk3s GWR-style, but you'd need some more Mk3s to use as seated/lounge coaches including some brake conversions as well as either running a third train or reducing the length - the Mk2s really have had it but the Mk3s will probably manage another 10 years with some good work done to them)

TimboM · 21 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Probably true of the Mk2s, but GWR operate a reliable service using their Mk3s. You do get the occasional HST/80x sub, but it's not that common.

More often than not it's the Mk2s that fail. GWR also took the option to fully overhaul their Mk3s (which was the option proposed by the other bidders for the CS Franchise).

Butts · 21 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Probably true of the Mk2s, but GWR operate a reliable service using their Mk3s. You do get the occasional HST/80x sub, but it's not that common.

Could this be due to the relative paucity of the mileage between London and Cornwall in comparison to that up to Edinburgh/Glasgow never mind Inverness and Aberdeen ?

Bletchleyite · 21 Jun 2019

Butts said:
Could this be due to the relative paucity of the mileage between London and Cornwall in comparison to that up to Edinburgh/Glasgow never mind Inverness and Aberdeen ?

True - the Riviera is probably in some ways a bit more like the old Liverpool/Manchester runs - it sits around at Reading and Taunton for ages (an hour at the latter I think) in order to kill time and not arrive too early.

option · 21 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
(I suppose a "third option" would be to refurb the Mk3s GWR-style, but you'd need some more Mk3s to use as seated/lounge coaches including some brake conversions as well as either running a third train or reducing the length - the Mk2s really have had it but the Mk3s will probably manage another 10 years with some good work done to them)

Aren't there Mk3s coming available anyway, & possibly some Mk4s?

TimboM · 21 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
You are clearly more confident than me.

If this goes on much longer (certainly if it goes on to the point hardly anyone uses it), I can entirely see a Fyra-like situation happening. Serco/Transport Scotland call CAF on breach of contract and return the stock for CAF to do whatever they feel like with and the service is permanently ended.

Mk5s have been operating the Lowlander every night for almost 2 months. Yes they undoubtedly have some problems that need to be sorted, but they're far from completely hopeless and needing to be returned to CAF!!!

Income form passengers also only covers about a third of the cost of each train that runs (subsidy and Serco foot the bill for the rest) so a significant drop in passenger numbers doesn't have quite the impact it may appear.

option · 22 Jun 2019

mirodo said:
Looks like they've been listening with regards to lounge provision (from the Cal Sleeper Twitter account:

*Free tea & coffee

Service Update, Fort William to Euston: Complimentary tea's and coffee's have been confirmed with Jury's Inn, Edinburgh, for those transferring by alternate road transport. We wholeheartedly apologise for the issues and inconveniences you've experienced tonight.
10:54 PM - 21 Jun 2019

Service Update, Fort William-Euston: In addition to arrangements with the Jury's Inn, the LNER 1st Class Lounge within Waverley Station will remain open, with both facilities available until the estimated boarding time of 01:15.
11:42 PM - 21 Jun 2019

Thats for people that have been on coaches for many hours, with no food service.
They also won't have had a restful journey, or be in bed!

Bletchleyite · 22 Jun 2019

The last thing I want before attempting to sleep is tea and coffee! Complimentary single malt might be closer to what is needed...

jagardner1984 · 22 Jun 2019

Genuine non-leading question about the Fort William situation - are there any spare staff available at either end each night ?

I'm not suggesting there should be, I'm just wondering what happens in the case of Winter flu etc.

Presumably the crew currently in Fort William are now out of place and have to return to base. Would they fly tomorrow ?

In terms of public safety, there is obviously the Train Manager, but beyond practical considerations (boarding/lounge service) is there a requirement for a certain number of sleeper hosts for X number of passengers ? Presumably the evacuation procedures are much more complicated than a day train, given you have most passengers asleep, behind a series of locked doors, or potentially taking a shower now ....

mirodo · 22 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
The last thing I want before attempting to sleep is tea and coffee! Complimentary single malt might be closer to what is needed...

Making a wee dram-a out of a crisis?

I'll get my coat...

Mag_seven · 22 Jun 2019

Southbound Lowlander (1M11) has come to grief at Acton Grange, just south of Warrington.

EDIT: on the move 167 late at Weaver Jn

side effect · 22 Jun 2019

1m16 is 1m11 is still at Acton bridge.

Traksy doing everything except tracking train

Dhassell · 22 Jun 2019

1M11 being terminated at Acton Bridge apparently according to CS twitter.

Mag_seven · 22 Jun 2019

Dhassell said:
1M11 being terminated at Acton Bridge apparently according to CS twitter.

Must be serious if they can't continue on and terminate at Crewe.

SideshowBob · 22 Jun 2019

Dhassell said:
1M11 being terminated at Acton Bridge apparently according to CS twitter.

Indeed. They say:

Caledonian Sleeper on Twitter (@CalSleeper) said:
Sincere apologies to guests on our southbound Lowlander service currently. This service is now terminating at Acton Bridge. Colleagues at West Midlands Trains will accept our tickets on their services to London. Tickets can also be used on Virgin Trains services to London.

https://twitter.com/CalSleeper/status/1142320966053322753?s=19

Caledonian Sleeper on Twitter (@CalSleeper) said:
Guests on our cancelled southbound Lowlander service can use their tickets to transfer at any station onto Virgin Trains network to London. Connections are available at Crewe and Stafford.

https://twitter.com/CalSleeper/status/1142321929707278336?s=19

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