Tickets where via routeing forbids the shortest/quickest route

lyndhurst25 · 1 Jul 2019

More and more tickets are having their route changed from "Any permitted" to "via X". Sometimes this is of no consequence as via X is the only way that a passenger would go. However, sometimes the change has been made thoughtlessly and is preventing passengers from taking the shortest or quickest route. Any examples? There must be plenty around. List the ones that you know of here.

e.g. Blundellsands to Parbold routed "via Wigan" - it's shorter, quicker and more obvious to go via Southport. You can't even go via Wigan in the evening or on Sundays because there is no service on the Kirkby to Wigan line.

e.g. Kirkby Stephen to Middlesborough routed "via Hexham" - it's shorter and often quicker to go via Leeds.

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Bletchleyite · 1 Jul 2019

That Southport example is utterly silly - it wouldn't occur to me that there would be any Permitted Route other than Southport - via Wigan is bordering on a bit silly. For what it's worth, NRE shows the Lancashire Day Ranger as the only valid ticket!

However, Trainsplit as ever saves the day with:

Blundellsands to Meols Cop - SDS - £5.20
Meols Cop to Parbold - SDS - also £5.20
So you are, by a massive 50p, better off not buying a through ticket anyway!

(A split at Southport is bizarrely a little more expensive)

lyndhurst25 · 1 Jul 2019

Bletchleyite said:
That Southport example is utterly silly - it wouldn't occur to me that there would be any Permitted Route other than Southport - via Wigan is bordering on a bit silly. For what it's worth, NRE shows the Lancashire Day Ranger as the only valid ticket!

However, Trainsplit as ever saves the day with:

Blundellsands to Meols Cop - SDS - £5.20
Meols Cop to Parbold - SDS - also £5.20
So you are, by a massive 50p, better off not buying a through ticket anyway!

(A split at Southport is bizarrely a little more expensive)

All well and good for you and I, but your average passenger is either going to look at NRE and think that the £24.50 Lancashire Day Ranger fare is a total rip-off and not travel, or buy a ticket from Blundellsands station and wonder how and why they are supposed to go via Wigan.

lyndhurst25 · 1 Jul 2019

Another one from Merseyside. Southport to Chester "via Birkenhead". The fastest route is actually via Wigan and Warrington but this is forbidden by both the Routeing Guide and the ticket routeing. However, looking at it simply, "via Birkenhead" prevents travel via the new Halton Curve service via Liverpool and Runcorn, which sometime offer the soonest arrival time.

Bletchleyite · 1 Jul 2019

lyndhurst25 said:
All well and good for you and I, but your average passenger is either going to look at NRE and think that the £24.50 Lancashire Day Ranger fare is a total rip-off and not travel, or buy a ticket from Blundellsands station and wonder how and why they are supposed to go via Wigan.

I don't disagree. Interestingly, NRE does do splits, but only where there is no through ticket, so that Ranger is a bit of a nuisance.

I would suggest that via Southport is the most reasonable route from anywhere on the Southport line including all the way from Hunts Cross because it is one simple change and is not particularly circuitous. (Well, it is a bit but not massively).

The via Wigan ticket does appear to be valid via Lime St, St Helens and Wigan, which is circuitous to the point of ludicrous, by the way, and requires 4 changes and about 2 hours!

I think someone at Northern simply hasn't thought this through and has done it in a rush.

Saperstein · 1 Jul 2019

The fare for that Chester ticket is set by Merseyrail which probably explains it, quite a few Merseyside fares towards Chester are rooted that way.

JBuchananGB · 1 Jul 2019

There is a journey opportunity every 15 minutes from Southport to Chester via Birkenhead with duration 1h44m, whereas trips via Warrington are few and far between, occasionally saving as much as 15 minutes. I’d go via Merseyrail every time. To refer to original point, every ticket I have bought from Birkdale to points not far beyond Liverpool, e.g. Edge Hill, Halewood, New Brighton, has had the words “via Liverpool” on it. As if I would go any other way!

geoffk · 1 Jul 2019

I'm fairly sure I recently had a ticket from Wigan NW to Blackpool which specified "via Preston"!

Y Ddraig Coch · 1 Jul 2019

geoffk said:
I'm fairly sure I recently had a ticket from Wigan NW to Blackpool which specified "via Preston"!

Do you not have to go through Preston to get to Blackpool? Is there any other way?

I'm pretty sure I have always had to change or at least pass through Preston to get to Blackpool if going through Wigan NW.

geoffk · 1 Jul 2019

Y Ddraig Coch said:
Do you not have to go through Preston to get to Blackpool? Is there any other way?
I'm pretty sure I have always had to change or at least pass through Preston to get to Blackpool if going through Wigan NW.

I did wonder what other way I was supposed to go. Although you can see Blackpool Tower from the end of Southport Pier it's quite a long way to swim!

Bletchleyite · 1 Jul 2019

Y Ddraig Coch said:
Do you not have to go through Preston to get to Blackpool? Is there any other way?

I'm pretty sure I have always had to change or at least pass through Preston to get to Blackpool if going through Wigan NW.

There's no other sensible way from south WCML stations to London either (well, I suppose you could go via the Marston Vale but it's rather circuitous). Some of these are just being put in to avoid the field being left blank.

lyndhurst25 · 1 Jul 2019

Yes, I suspect that lots are being put in just for the sake of it. The risk is that whoever is doing it doesn't understand the implications of what they are doing and possibly barring perfectly reasonable routes, routes that would otherwise be allowed by the Routeing Guide, shortest routes and fastest routes.

More examples -

Clapham (Yorks) to Horton in Ribblesdale "via Skipton". It's priced accordingly high, presumably because of the extra unnecessary validity. Should be just "Any permitted", blank or at least "via Hellifield".

Skipton to Wakefield "via Leeds". The Routeing Guide allows travel via Bradford and Halifax. Changing the ticket routeing to bar this is effectively changing the Routeing Guide by stealth. Was DfT permission sought for the change? I doubt it.

Ken H · 1 Jul 2019

lyndhurst25 said:
Yes, I suspect that lots are being put in just for the sake of it. The risk is that whoever is doing it doesn't understand the implications of what they are doing and possibly barring perfectly reasonable routes, routes that would otherwise be allowed by the Routeing Guide, shortest routes and fastest routes.

More examples -

Clapham (Yorks) to Horton in Ribblesdale "via Skipton". It's priced accordingly high, presumably because of the extra unnecessary validity. Should be just "Any permitted", blank or at least "via Hellifield".

Skipton to Wakefield "via Leeds". The Routeing Guide allows travel via Bradford and Halifax. Changing the ticket routeing to bar this is effectively changing the Routeing Guide by stealth. Was DfT permission sought for the change? I doubt it.

settle to giggleswick is also 'via skipton'. Er, no. change at Long Preston, surely?
(Yes, I know, nobody does Giggleswick -Settle, or if they do, they get the 581 bus)

I did Headstone Lane - Walthamstow Central -must have been about 1976 - This was before the cl313's took over that route so long ago.
The ticket said 'Via Maida Vale.' When shirley its quicker (and shorter) via Euston???
Got a bollocking from the barrier staff at Euston, but he didnt really care.
Think the ticket was an LT one issued from a BR station - or did I make that up???

Bletchleyite · 1 Jul 2019

Ken H said:
settle to giggleswick is also 'via skipton'. Er, no. change at Long Preston, surely?

Not everything stops there.

alistairlees · 1 Jul 2019

Euston to Edale is via Manchester. When you can change at Stockport. It means the last journey of the day is unnecessarily early.

xotGD · 1 Jul 2019

lyndhurst25 said:
Skipton to Wakefield "via Leeds". The Routeing Guide allows travel via Bradford and Halifax. Changing the ticket routeing to bar this is effectively changing the Routeing Guide by stealth. Was DfT permission sought for the change? I doubt it.

You would think that passengers avoiding Leeds would be actively encouraged, with a cheaper fare offered, rather than forcing folk to add to the Leeds congestion.

sheff1 · 1 Jul 2019

A longstanding routing is between various stations in the North West and Sheffield 'via Stockport'. There is an easement which allows a 'via Stockport' ticket to be used on trains which do not call at Stockport (!!) but some booking engines do not recognise this and so do not return any valid journeys using the 2220 x Piccadilly to Sheffield (Mon-Sat) or any train when engineering means diversion away from Stockport.

Bletchleyite · 1 Jul 2019

sheff1 said:
A longstanding routing is between various stations in the North West and Sheffield 'via Stockport'. There is an easement which allows a 'via Stockport' ticket to be used on trains which do not call at Stockport (!!) but some booking engines do not recognise this and so do not return any valid journeys using the 2220 x Piccadilly to Sheffield (Mon-Sat) or any train when engineering means diversion away from Stockport.

I've long thought that one bizarre, as it would be fixed by routeing Chinley instead.

infobleep · 2 Jul 2019

Any Southern based examples people know of? I can't think of any myself.

RJ · 2 Jul 2019

There are a few from my station where the only route available is a daft one involving several changes. One of the legs has a poor service which doesn't run every day. And people actually go that way, because the ticket says so. I suspect some people don't like the railway's offering in the journey planner and opt to drive instead.

Customers regularly say they wish to travel via London, which is by far the quickest route. As a result they are charged inconsistent prices as people issue different fares. In this case fare splitting offers poor value for money.

The National Routeing Guide says London is a permitted route for the journey - there's just no fare that allows it!

E100 · 2 Jul 2019

I had hoped this would be the sort of thing that the ombusman would be able to sort out... ...I'm yet to hear any major news from them on how they are holding the TOC's to account.

ForTheLoveOf · 2 Jul 2019

E100 said:
I had hoped this would be the sort of thing that the ombusman would be able to sort out... ...I'm yet to hear any major news from them on how they are holding the TOC's to account.

If you expected that to happen then prepare to be greatly disappointed! The Ombudsman is there to semi-competently deal with individual complaints, just like Transport Focus but with the right to force TOCs to actually abide by their rulings. They don't, however, have the lobbying powers and instructions that Transport Focus have.

We need another Rail Regulator but it's the least of the Government's priorities, if it is at all on the list.

FenMan · 2 Jul 2019

Blackwater - East Croydon is a fun one. The obvious and quickest route via Redhill (1h15m+) is not permitted.

If travelling in the peaks, the only through ticket itinerary reported by NRE for journeys to Croydon Stations is to West Croydon.
Outbound this can be done in a reasonable 1h20m with a change at Guildford, however the return itinerary takes 1h51m with changes at Epsom and Guildford.

infobleep · 2 Jul 2019

I wonder if this thread will change anything for the positive? I'm sure I once read pricing managers read these forums.

Any evidence that any of these are deliberate rather than just unintended consequences of changes.

Peter Mugridge · 2 Jul 2019

infobleep said:
Any evidence that any of these are deliberate rather than just unintended consequences of changes.

It looks very much like a case of the law of unintended consequences to me. Some of the examples given above would cause an absolute stink in the press if anyone got fined for trying to use a perfectly logical short route.

Saperstein · 2 Jul 2019

Peter Mugridge said:
It looks very much like a case of the law of unintended consequences to me. Some of the examples given above would cause an absolute stink in the press if anyone got fined for trying to use a perfectly logical short route.

OK I’m gonna play Devil’s Advocate here.

It may be logical, there may be a stink. But legally, would pax have a leg to stand on?

Saperstein

maxbarnish · 2 Jul 2019

I got this one by mistake once when it wasn't indicated at all in my view - or at least clearly - on an online booking system. And yes I did the journey as per the ticket.

Manchester Stns to Leeds via Northern Only. Takes a lot longer - means have to go from Man Victoria on the line out via Rochdale and then it either goes via Bradford Int or Dewsbury

Ianigsy · 2 Jul 2019

xotGD said:
You would think that passengers avoiding Leeds would be actively encouraged, with a cheaper fare offered, rather than forcing folk to add to the Leeds congestion.

There are a whole raft of journeys from the Airedale and Wharfedale lines onto the Calder Valley and Standedge routes which don't reward avoiding Leeds. One of my regular journeys is from the Ilkley line to Merseyside - if I'm going straight from work I book advances to and from Leeds but holding a West Yorks MCard, if I'm not at work I'll bus it to Hebden Bridge and get a return there.

lyndhurst25 · 2 Jul 2019

infobleep said:
I wonder if this thread will change anything for the positive? I'm sure I once read pricing managers read these forums.

Any evidence that any of these are deliberate rather than just unintended consequences of changes.

I suspect that many of the problems of adding "via X" routeing to tickets are unintended. The person(s) making the change don't understand all the consequences of what they are doing. I can actually think of a a few tickets that have unintentionally had the valid routes over which they can be used expanded as a result of an ill thought out "via X" restriction because if the split route rule!

E100 · 3 Jul 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
If you expected that to happen then prepare to be greatly disappointed! The Ombudsman is there to semi-competently deal with individual complaints, just like Transport Focus but with the right to force TOCs to actually abide by their rulings. They don't, however, have the lobbying powers and instructions that Transport Focus have.

We need another Rail Regulator but it's the least of the Government's priorities, if it is at all on the list.

That was pretty much my point. The Ombudsun could have been made into a broader passenger organisation but wasn't.

Tickets where via routeing forbids the shortest/quickest route

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