South Wales 'Metro' updates

Look carefully at the map:>

You see the light green train-tram route from Plasdwr and J33 & the NW. It joins the City Line just N of Fairwater station. This is an excellent idea as it will help shift the new populous from all the housing that is taking place in this area. Clearly bus based transport won’t work due to the congested routes through Llandaff & Fairwater - Canton. So, by using the present City Line, it is possible to shift people to Cardiff Central Station in a most efficient way. Also note that people could transfer to the purple route - which is in effect a circle line around Cardiff. Again, this is a big win by connecting Coryton Station with the valleys line just N of Radyr. Also note that it will have a station to serve the expanded Velindre Hospital as well as a P&R near the M4 - although one would hope that people would have travelled by rail from nearer their homes in the valleys or wherever.

What concerns me, is the extension of the green line beyond the proposed terminal just south of the present Cardiff Bay station into areas to the SE including Ocean Way/ Splott. If this could be done off street then not so bad. However, I fear this will not be the case and on-street running will occur. Now, as we know from the buses, they very rarely keep to schedule due to delays caused by traffic. With the trains, they normally keep to schedule and arrive / depart usually at the exact time - unless something goes very wrong. The section of the City Line between Fairwater and Cardiff Central will also be carrying train-trams from the valleys to the north. These will no longer proceed down to the coast but will loop around in Cardiff before heading back to the valleys. (Only the Rhymney line trains will continue to the coast). So, if we are to have some services going off on meandering on-street routes in SE Cardiff, this could very well screw up the schedules of services to the valleys. Some might say that the schedules won’t matter as these things will be so frequent. Well, they might be frequent within Cardiff but what about the upper Valleys where services will be better than at present but relatively less frequent compared to the lines shown on the map in the Cardiff area? Also note that somehow, the green line has to come off the City Line at or near the Central station and get across Callaghan Square in order to proceed to the Bay. Would it not have been best to keep the rail system separate and just have areas like the Bay served by electric buses?

Also note on the map the large oblong at Waungron Park. This surely indicates the intention to proceed with a transport interchange at this location using the former refuse centre. I can’t see the people of Ely being very happy if their buses have to make a detour into this place to allow a few passengers to swap routes. (They can already switch to City Circle buses at Windway Road & perhaps the Ely Mill station would have made a more convenient place to switch to the City Line)?

I also see that plans have been made for a Business Park on land between the Vale of Glamorgan Coast Line at Porthkerry and Cardiff Airport. If this goes ahead, it will scupper any chance of having a direct link into the Airport at some stage in the future as this land would be needed for such a rail link. An absolutely daft decision if this goes ahead. (It will also put even more traffic onto the slow and overloaded roads to the Airport - thus doing the Airport no favours.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local-news/everything-know-huge-business-park-16396944

A new business park which would provide jobs for more than 2,000 people is being planned at Cardiff Airport.

The 111-acre development on land at Port Road in Rhoose, adjacent to the airport, would have 1.7m sq ft of business space including offices, light industrial space and warehouses for the aerospace and related industries.

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Equally daft is the plan to build a new station at Miskin on the main line to serve Cardiff Airport and then bus people across the Vale via a new road in the Pendoylan area. What trains would stop at such a station? Certainly not the expresses. People in west Wales are already moaning about the slow train services west of Cardiff. So, why would people travel on a stopping to train to a new station at Miskin to then get on a bus to the Airport? For people from west Wales, it surely is quicker to connect with the present train to Rhoose at Bridgend or Cardiff for those coming from the east. There is absolutely no advantage in going to Miskin and then by bus across the vale.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local-news/preferred-route-controversial-m4-a48-16045713

The Vale of Glamorgan council says its favoured option for the road - which would connect junction 34 of the M4 with the A48 south of Sycamore Cross - would stretch to the west of the village of Pendoylan rather than to the east.

The council is also expected to press the case for a new railway station and a park and ride near junction 34 which would link to Cardiff Airport.

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Envoy said:

I also see that plans have been made for a Business Park on land between the Vale of Glamorgan Coast Line at Porthkerry and Cardiff Airport. If this goes ahead, it will scupper any chance of having a direct link into the Airport at some stage in the future as this land would be needed for such a rail link. An absolutely daft decision if this goes ahead. (It will also put even more traffic onto the slow and overloaded roads to the Airport - thus doing the Airport no favours.

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I would have thought such a business park could actually help justify a light rail airport branch of about a mile from the south end of Porthkerry viaduct, curving sharply at around 60m radius to avoid farm buildings, then climb to bridge Porthkerry Road to the built up ground inside the airport perimeter and follow the road into the terminal complex. The perimeter fence could be moved to the top of the bank inside the railway alignment. The branch would be about a mile long in total and might have a stop about half way along to serve the business park. It could make a good alternative destination for Valleys tram-trains along with Penarth, instead of doubling back along the City Line to Radyr if that section is going to be used instead by the future circular line.

Envoy said:

What concerns me, is the extension of the green line beyond the proposed terminal just south of the present Cardiff Bay station into areas to the SE including Ocean Way/ Splott. If this could be done off street then not so bad. However, I fear this will not be the case and on-street running will occur. Now, as we know from the buses, they very rarely keep to schedule due to delays caused by traffic. With the trains, they normally keep to schedule and arrive / depart usually at the exact time - unless something goes very wrong.

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I may well be wrong but I'd assumed the alignment through Splott would use the freight only branch that runs down from the mainline to Celsa Steel and the working docks. If that were the case the only on-street running woud be a short section on Pierhead street.

Tomos y Tanc said:

I may well be wrong but I'd assumed the alignment through Splott would use the freight only branch that runs down from the mainline to Celsa Steel and the working docks. If that were the case the only on-street running woud be a short section on Pierhead street.

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And where running alongside and crossing roads, trams can be have dedicated lanes (or can share bus lanes) and can be given priority at signalised junctions. Careful associated highway design can largely prevent any block-backs from general traffic lanes.

MarkyT said:

I would have thought such a business park could actually help justify a light rail airport branch of about a mile from the south end of Porthkerry viaduct, curving sharply at around 60m radius to avoid farm buildings, then climb to bridge Porthkerry Road to the built up ground inside the airport perimeter and follow the road into the terminal complex. The perimeter fence could be moved to the top of the bank inside the railway alignment. The branch would be about a mile long in total and might have a stop about half way along to serve the business park. It could make a good alternative destination for Valleys tram-trains along with Penarth, instead of doubling back along the City Line to Radyr if that section is going to be used instead by the future circular line. View attachment 65263

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I am of the opinion that it might be best for any airport spur line to come off the present Coast line east of Porthkerry viaduct and cross the land where they plan to build the business park to obviously avoid losing height that would be caused by being too near the valley. Now, it would surely be desirable for such trains to continue on to Llantwit Major and hence Bridgend and thus maintain the through link that we have today - which incidentally also provides the shortest route between Barry and Bridgend and places to the west. That being so, then another line would need to be built from the Airport to join the Coast line west of the Porthkerry viaduct. The alternative would be to build a new line from the Airport westward alongside the road to link with the present line at Aberthaw. None of this could be justified today but I say that the land should be protected from development in order to keep these options open for the future.

MarkyT said:

And where running alongside and crossing roads, trams can be have dedicated lanes (or can share bus lanes) and can be given priority at signalised junctions. Careful associated highway design can largely prevent any block-backs from general traffic lanes.

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Click the following link and we can see the area that would be needed to traverse in order to get the tram-train through the inner Bay area. I also note that a recent Urdd Eisteddfod took place in this area and that permission was given to close roads in order that a fairground could be set up just north of Roald Dahl’s Plas. This must have had a terrible impact on public transport in this area. I just cannot see how tram-trains could operate in this area and keep to schedule. That being so, they will just screw things up when they are on the City Line - which will be carrying services from miles away in the valleys. So, is running train-trams directly from Cregiau, Plasdwr to Splott via the Bay really in the best interests of the greater number of people? Furthermore, the present bus routes from Splott to the city centre offer a more direct route than any train-tram could via the Bay.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4670538,-3.1594365,1185m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

The Urdd Eisteddfod and its road closures caused no problems to public transport down in the Bay. All was well planned by all parties well in advance.

Envoy said:

Click the following link and we can see the area that would be needed to traverse in order to get the tram-train through the inner Bay area. I also note that a recent Urdd Eisteddfod took place in this area and that permission was given to close roads in order that a fairground could be set up just north of Roald Dahl’s Plas. This must have had a terrible impact on public transport in this area. I just cannot see how tram-trains could operate in this area and keep to schedule. That being so, they will just screw things up when they are on the City Line - which will be carrying services from miles away in the valleys. So, is running train-trams directly from Cregiau, Plasdwr to Splott via the Bay really in the best interests of the greater number of people? Furthermore, the present bus routes from Splott to the city centre offer a more direct route than any train-tram could via the Bay.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4670538,-3.1594365,1185m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

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Your last point in certainly correct. I suspect the reason they have opted for the Splott/Ocean Park route rather than running trams down Newport Road is to avoid the problems you've identified with on-street running. It does leave a question though about how much demand there would be for such a service.

I'm not quite sure what point you're making with the Urdd Eisteddfod. Bute Place is frequently closed for major events in the Bay without any serious impact on public transport. On those occasions, the Baycar diverts to County Hall while the Number 8 bus runs as a shuttle to the lower bay along Bute street. Rail services are unaffected

If street closures were a problem the fair could easily have been accomodated in Britannia Park. The fact that it wasn't suggests that you're seeing problems where none exist.

Tomos y Tanc said:

Your last point in certainly correct. I suspect the reason they have opted for the Splott/Ocean Park route rather than running trams down Newport Road is to avoid the problems you've identified with on-street running. It does leave a question though about how much demand there would be for such a service.

I'm not quite sure what point you're making with the Urdd Eisteddfod. Bute Place is frequently closed for major events in the Bay without any serious impact on public transport. On those occasions, the Baycar diverts to County Hall while the Number 8 bus runs as a shuttle to the lower bay along Bute street. Rail services are unaffected

If street closures were a problem the fair could easily have been accomodated in Britannia Park. The fact that it wasn't suggests that you're seeing problems where none exist.

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The point I am making about the Urdd Eisteddfod having fairground rides overspilling onto the nearby roads is that if you have a fixed rail transport system in the area, then obviously you can’t have diversions - as you can now with buses. I would also like to mention that Cardiff Council are once again trying to ‘grab’ Britannia Park for development. This is one of the few open spaces within the inner Bay and should be kept as a public open space. All great cities in the world have public green spaces. Cardiff was lucky to have many fine parks from Victorian times. Unfortunately, those now in charge of the city just seem to be a load of money grabbers - as witnessed by flogging off the land that was a green space in the centre of the city for the Admiral office block. (The Lib-Dems were in coalition with Plaid Cymru when the decision was taken to remove the small park that had been newly created on the land where Admiral now stands. This park was in an ideal position as it was right outside the eastern end of the St.David’s Shopping centre).

Cardiff123 said:

These proposals are from Cardiff Council alone, nothing to do with TfW, Keolis Amey and Welsh Govt at this stage.

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"At this stage" being the key phrase. The plan is ambitious and at £1bn very costly.
1) Cardiff council will surely not be able to finance that entirely by itself - maybe private money but certainly as well UK Government and Welsh Government funding will no doubt be sought - with implications for taxpayers across Wales. If so, people outside of the Cardiff city and county will have the right to ask questions.
2) TFW and Keolis Amey will inevitably become involved as the rail components are additions to the planned South Wales Metro and in some cases appear to use parts of the existing rail network or will use parts of the South Wales metro rail network.

Tom Quinne said:

Becoming? It has been for the last 30 years.

Outside the Cardiff bubble is a wasteland, but...local/city councils are as much to blame, how much and many investment opportunities has Newport missed out on as our city council hasn’t the ability or will do fight our Corner.

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I wasn't actually thinking of Newport or the valleys of South East Wales, which will hopefully derive some benefit from the South Wales metro and Cardiff city region "deal". I was thinking about south west Wales, mid Wales and north Wales - speaking on my travels to people from those areas they feel just as remote from and forgotten by a Welsh Government based in South East Wales as do people in the North of England in terms of London and the south east.
It can be argued that infrastructure investment is bound to gravitate to the most densely populated and rapidly expanding areas.
The reverse can, however, be argued. Over a long period of time, focusing infrastructure investment on such areas has fuelled further growth and expansion leading to overcrowding and pressure on resources whilst other areas stagnate or decline for want of vital investment.

Did anyone carry out a land survey or consult with a civil engineer before drawing up these plans? Looks like an overly ambitions "project manager" was asked to draw up a metro map using blue sky thinking.

It's safe to disregard the parts about rail and trams, as they won't happen. It's clear whoever did this didn't even consult with Google Maps.

Coryton - Velindre Hospital - M4 J32 parkway - Radyr/Taffs Well???
Velindre is to the SE of Coryton, M4 J32 is to the NW and on the route of the old Cardiff Railway of which Coryton is the current terminus. Fine reinstate the track to the Taff Vale Line, but you can scrap the Velindre stop.

Cardiff Central to Herbert Street???
There's a big building and Callaghan Square in the way. Isn't there a development going on around John Street?

Creigiau to Fairwater
I'd be in favour of it, but there are houses in the way at the junction to the City Line and the local residents would oppose it.

S-Bahn said:

Did anyone carry out a land survey or consult with a civil engineer before drawing up these plans? Looks like an overly ambitions "project manager" was asked to draw up a metro map using blue sky thinking.

It's safe to disregard the parts about rail and trams, as they won't happen. It's clear whoever did this didn't even consult with Google Maps.

Coryton - Velindre Hospital - M4 J32 parkway - Radyr/Taffs Well???
Velindre is to the SE of Coryton, M4 J32 is to the NW and on the route of the old Cardiff Railway of which Coryton is the current terminus. Fine reinstate the track to the Taff Vale Line, but you can scrap the Velindre stop.

Cardiff Central to Herbert Street???
There's a big building and Callaghan Square in the way. Isn't there a development going on around John Street?

Creigiau to Fairwater
I'd be in favour of it, but there are houses in the way at the junction to the City Line and the local residents would oppose it.

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Coryton - Velindre Hospital - M4 J32 parkway
The current Velindre Hospital is indeed to the SE of Coryton but planning permission has already been granted for a replacement facility on the proposed route.

http://www.transformingcancerservices.wales/

Creigiau to Fairwater
It would require the demolition of around four houses. It's hardly HS2.

S-Bahn said:

Coryton - Velindre Hospital - M4 J32 parkway - Radyr/Taffs Well???
Velindre is to the SE of Coryton, M4 J32 is to the NW and on the route of the old Cardiff Railway of which Coryton is the current terminus. Fine reinstate the track to the Taff Vale Line, but you can scrap the Velindre stop.

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Slight problem with that, there is a big motorway junction in the way.

Llanigraham said:

Slight problem with that, there is a big motorway junction in the way.

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You could probably get from Coryton to Radyr crossing the A4054 Park Road, the Glamorgan Canal, River Taff and a couple of cricket grounds.

Llanigraham said:

Slight problem with that, there is a big motorway junction in the way.

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I seem to recall that the Cardiff Railway is below the level of the M4, so it might be possible (but expensive) to push a bridge underneath by horizontal jacking without affecting the motorway.

I have actually visited the location to see where a link rail line could go between the present cutting below the Asda store & the present railway just N of Radyr. There is in fact space just N of Longwood Drive and then to cross anew bridge over the Taff to the present line form the central valleys. See:>https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5247254,-3.2502858,885m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

Mention has been made of houses in Fairwater having to be demolished to join any new line out to Plasdwr & places NW such as Cregiau. The residents of these houses are well aware of the plans to re-build this railway as it was marked on the Local Development Plan issued by Cardiff Council as being a possibility. Clearly it was foolish to build on an old rail line and this has happened up and down the country. Now these people are left in limbo not knowing what will happen. Clearly it is for the greater good that the railway is re-built as Cardiff Council decided to embark on this massive development scheme to the NW of the city. The road links through congested Llandaff, Fairwater & Canton just wont be able to cope and thus buses are not the answer either.

Looks like an awful lot of trains/tram-trains going through Queen Street for conventional signalling - anyone know what the current/planned post-Metro signalling capacity through there will be? On top of the Newport Road bridge constraint.

Dr Day said:

Looks like an awful lot of trains/tram-trains going through Queen Street for conventional signalling - anyone know what the current/planned post-Metro signalling capacity through there will be? On top of the Newport Road bridge constraint.

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I believe they keep the existing signalling, possibly with modifications, as freight trains must still be able to run through Queen Street.

I think the map is indicating that only the existing (as proposed by TfW) service will go through the station itself, and the extra services will be trams on local streets.

Much more use will be made of the City Line (so avoiding Queen St) as another route into Cardiff Central under the plans released on Thursday.
Cardiff Area Signalling Renewal by Network Rail now allows 16tph through Queen St + 1 freight path. Considering that the long term future of Cwmbargoed open cast mine is less than certain as the UK phases out energy production from coal, I doubt that freight flows on the Valleys and through Queen St will be a worry by 2025.

edwin_m said:

I believe they keep the existing signalling, possibly with modifications, as freight trains must still be able to run through Queen Street.

I think the map is indicating that only the existing (as proposed by TfW) service will go through the station itself, and the extra services will be trams on local streets.

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I see nothing on the map to suggest that services will run through the streets of central Cardiff.

Envoy said:

I see nothing on the map to suggest that services will run through the streets of central Cardiff.

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The TfW Rail Metro Map - doesn’t show any street running. But does show new stations and the line extension in the bay, which is the only confirmed onstreet running (unless I’ve missed something) is the extension in the Bay - cutting across Hemingway Road.

The WG Metro map (the colourful one) when read alongside WG issued metro documents implies a lot of on street running, especially the yellow line.

The Cardiff Council project announced last week, would involve some on street running. But that project is purely aspirational and uncosted as of now.

(There was a mention of the new Gabalfa station being street running, but I can’t work out how or why. The Wikipedia article on it as coordinates for the station which seem and look logical)

PaulHarding150 said:

The TfW Rail Metro Map - doesn’t show any street running. But does show new stations and the line extension in the bay, which is the only confirmed onstreet running (unless I’ve missed something) is the extension in the Bay - cutting across Hemingway Road.

The WG Metro map (the colourful one) when read alongside WG issued metro documents implies a lot of on street running, especially the yellow line.

The Cardiff Council project announced last week, would involve some on street running. But that project is purely aspirational and uncosted as of now.

(There was a mention of the new Gabalfa station being street running, but I can’t work out how or why. The Wikipedia article on it as coordinates for the station which seem and look logical)

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The ‘Cardiff Council Project’ that you mention is I believe all linked in to whatever Transport for Wales/Welsh Government are planning. I do not think for 1 minute that they are not talking to each other about the plans for the Metro.

Envoy said:

The ‘Cardiff Council Project’ that you mention is I believe all linked in to whatever Transport for Wales/Welsh Government are planning. I do not think for 1 minute that they are not talking to each other about the plans for the Metro.

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Of course they are talking to each other, and it of course helps that Cardiff Council and Welsh Govt/TfW are run by the same political party. Plus the man behind the Metro, Mark Barry, is involved in these new Cardiff Council plans and has written an interesting blog about the plans, including the need for major re-modelling of Cardiff West junction to release capacity on the City Line and the Vale of Glamorgan line into Cardiff Central.

https://swalesmetroprof.blog/2019/07/05/a-cardiff-crossrail/

Envoy said:

The ‘Cardiff Council Project’ that you mention is I believe all linked in to whatever Transport for Wales/Welsh Government are planning. I do not think for 1 minute that they are not talking to each other about the plans for the Metro.

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I really hope that Cardiff Council are talking to WG/TfW - really hope so.

tomos dafis said:

"At this stage" being the key phrase. The plan is ambitious and at £1bn very costly.
1) Cardiff council will surely not be able to finance that entirely by itself - maybe private money but certainly as well UK Government and Welsh Government funding will no doubt be sought - with implications for taxpayers across Wales. If so, people outside of the Cardiff city and county will have the right to ask questions.
2) TFW and Keolis Amey will inevitably become involved as the rail components are additions to the planned South Wales Metro and in some cases appear to use parts of the existing rail network or will use parts of the South Wales metro rail network.

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Wales has the right to raise the finance through its own income tax rate control, this would seem appropriate.

Meole said:

Wales has the right to raise the finance through its own income tax rate control, this would seem appropriate.

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Indeed they now have limited powers to vary a portion of income tax, they also have limited borrowing powers up to £1bn too, which they are not now using for the M4 bypass.
My point is whether raising income tax rates throughout Wales to finance (either directly or to finance borrowing) this ambitious, expensive extension to the metro just in the Cardiff area is "appropriate.". People in areas of Wales outside of Cardiff paying higher taxes would then have the right to comment upon it and question it. I suspect if the Welsh Government were to use its limited powers to vary income tax upwards just for a project in one part of Wales, that would not be popular elsewhere in Wales; whereas a ring-fenced rise to improve e.g. social care throughout Wales might command more general support.

I see that Cardiff Council also desire to see a new large arena built in the Bay. This would presumably replace the present Arena in the city centre? When events take place, large numbers of people will need to be shifted at once. I question the location of such an arena in the Bay as surely any new Metro system would be unable to cope with the sudden flow of people? That would mean that considerable numbers of people would face the long walk to the the Central Station - which of course, is better able to cope as it has train services radiating in all directions.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local-news/cardiff-bay-red-dragon-arena-16541052

The arena would also be linked to the rest of the Cardiff by the proposed new metro light rail system which was revealed this week.

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Would not the vacant land on the south side of Callaghan Square be a better location for the arena as it is only a short walk from the Central Station? (This would probably mean the demolition of the relatively new Huggard Centre for the homeless. This would be no bad thing as it could be re-built in an out of the way location or even go to the present Youth Hostel with the Youth Hostel being re-located to a more central position).
Map:>https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4745883,-3.1751669,542m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

The best way to see this, I suspect, is as Cardiff council's pitch for the next stage of the Metro project. We may well see pitches by other councils in due course.

RCT would no doubt like to see the Aberdare line extended to Hirwaun and the reopening of the Ely valley line to Beddau. Caerphilly and Blaenau Gwent are already lobbying for improvements on the Ebbw Valley line although they disagree about what those improvements should be with BG wanting four services an hour to Cardiff and Caerphilly lobbying for services to Newport and Abertillery.

Realistically, the line up through Plasdŵr is almost certain to happen as the development is unsustainable without it and it features in the LDP. The other Cardiff plans are probably better described as aspirational.

Envoy said:

I see that Cardiff Council also desire to see a new large arena built in the Bay. This would presumably replace the present Arena in the city centre? When events take place, large numbers of people will need to be shifted at once. I question the location of such an arena in the Bay as surely any new Metro system would be unable to cope with the sudden flow of people? That would mean that considerable numbers of people would face the long walk to the the Central Station - which of course, is better able to cope as it has train services radiating in all directions.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local-news/cardiff-bay-red-dragon-arena-16541052


Would not the vacant land on the south side of Callaghan Square be a better location for the arena as it is only a short walk from the Central Station? (This would probably mean the demolition of the relatively new Huggard Centre for the homeless. This would be no bad thing as it could be re-built in an out of the way location or even go to the present Youth Hostel with the Youth Hostel being re-located to a more central position).
Map:>https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4745883,-3.1751669,542m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1

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There's a theory that it's best to locate major venues like this a little way away from transport facilities, so that the crowds all leaving at the same time when an event finishes will have spread out a little by the time they get to the stop/station. I'm not sure if this is the intention here, but they could try to keep the Metro for those who are unable to walk to Central and encourage others who want the rail network to walk instead.