Things UK railways get right compared to other countries

Bletchleyite · 11 Jul 2019

paddington said:
Also shorter journeys can be hideously expensive. I had to pay 30 francs for a single recently. A Saver Day Pass would have been only 52 francs, less than double the price but maybe an increase of a thousandfold in validity (and no peak restrictions too), unfortunately I only needed to take that single journey.

Pretty much every Swiss person has a half-fare card. This is deliberate - it is an effective tourist tax (so the subsidy effectively only goes on locals), plus it means because you've invested a fixed sum in the card you're more likely to travel more by train.

It's not a bad system, and in a way isn't that dissimilar to the Network Railcard in the SE.

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite · 11 Jul 2019

radamfi said:
So only 15 CHF with a Half Fare Card. Obviously that's not much help for tourists, but the Swiss rail network is primarily for Swiss residents. Tourists are mostly directed to the Swiss Travel Pass. There is a one month Half Fare Card for non-Swiss but that is not much cheaper than a whole year one.

Note that you don't have to live in CH to get an annual one, you can have it delivered to a station ticket office for collection, though this only really works if you're going twice in reasonably close succession.

sheff1 · 13 Jul 2019

tasky said:
Another thing I don't think has been mentioned yet is direct services to smaller towns, at least to London. Many countries on the continent rely much more heavily on passengers changing trains at hubs - you wouldn't get a situation like in the UK where a town like Newton Abbot (population 25,000) has a regular direct service to the capital nearly 200 miles away.

Nässjö (pop ~17000} to has an hourly train to Stockholm, 200 miles away, taking less time than the shorter distance from Newton Abbot to Paddington. Plenty of other examples out there if you look.

JonasB · 13 Jul 2019

sheff1 said:
Nässjö (pop ~17000} to has an hourly train to Stockholm, 200 miles away, taking less time than the shorter distance from Newton Abbot to Paddington. Plenty of other examples out there if you look.

True, but I'm not sure it would have such amazing service if it wasn't:

A. On the main line between Stockholm and Copenhagen.
B. The station where people travelling to Jönköping (pop ~94000) has to change to a local train.

sheff1 · 13 Jul 2019

radamfi said:
That comes at a severe penalty - the requirement to buy a return ticket or a very expensive Anytime ticket if you need multiple day validity on the outward portion. Needing to buy a return ticket to make rail travel affordable is one of the worst things about GB.

A typical journey for me ----- Day 1 Sheffield to Aberdeen; Day 2 Aberdeen to Inverness; Day 3 Inverness to Dundee; Day 4 Dundee to Edinburgh; Day 5 Edinburgh to Sheffield ----- costs £168.

Even if the single fares were half the Off Peak return (which of course they are not) the total would be ~ £210 (81 + 22 + 30 + 14 + 63). I stand by my view that the ability to break a journey over multiple days is something which GB does better.

sheff1 · 13 Jul 2019

JonasB said:
True, but I'm not sure it would have such amazing service if it wasn't:

A. On the main line between Stockholm and Copenhagen.
B. The station where people travelling to Jönköping (pop ~94000) has to change to a local train.

Equally, Newton Abbot would not have the service it does were it not (i) on the main line to/from Plymouth (ii) the connecting station for Torbay.

radamfi · 14 Jul 2019

sheff1 said:
A typical journey for me ----- Day 1 Sheffield to Aberdeen; Day 2 Aberdeen to Inverness; Day 3 Inverness to Dundee; Day 4 Dundee to Edinburgh; Day 5 Edinburgh to Sheffield ----- costs £168.

Even if the single fares were half the Off Peak return (which of course they are not) the total would be ~ £210 (81 + 22 + 30 + 14 + 63). I stand by my view that the ability to break a journey over multiple days is something which GB does better.

But that itinerary only works because you are doing the full outward journey in one day, or two days if the journey cannot be completed in one day. The month validity only applies to the return portion. If you aren't coming back using a permitted route valid with that ticket, you would either have to be creative with excesses or get at least three singles.

tasky · 14 Jul 2019

sheff1 said:
Equally, Newton Abbot would not have the service it does were it not (i) on the main line to/from Plymouth (ii) the connecting station for Torbay.

Well OK, St Austell (pop. 19,800) has an hourly service to London and isn't a connecting station for anywhere. Of course there will be some example across Europe with similar service patterns, the point was just it's more common in the UK than many European countries (I'm most experienced with Belgium, Germany, France, Spain, Italy)

Adsy125 · 14 Jul 2019

tasky said:
Well OK, St Austell (pop. 19,800) has an hourly service to London and isn't a connecting station for anywhere. Of course there will be some example across Europe with similar service patterns, the point was just it's more common in the UK than many European countries (I'm most experienced with Belgium, Germany, France, Spain, Italy)

~~St Ives?~~

Edit: Not Getting my Cornish "St"s confused! It isn't really an hourly service though. Excluding the sleeper there are only 3 direct services after 1300, one of which goes the long way around via Bristol.

43096 · 14 Jul 2019

Adsy125 said:
St Ives?

Check the map.....

I think you are confused with St Erth.

duesselmartin · 14 Jul 2019

UK trains and stations certainly seem cleaner than there German counterparts. Especially regional services are grimey inside. Stations having decades of chewing gum in the platforms.

MarcVD · 14 Jul 2019

tasky said:
Well OK, St Austell (pop. 19,800) has an hourly service to London and isn't a connecting station for anywhere. Of course there will be some example across Europe with similar service patterns, the point was just it's more common in the UK than many European countries (I'm most experienced with Belgium, Germany, France, Spain, Italy)

Almost all belgian cities with 10k+ inhabitants have an hourly service to Brussels.

duesselmartin · 14 Jul 2019

MarcVD said:
Almost all belgian cities with 10k+ inhabitants have an hourly service to Brussels.

You must admit that Belgium is a lot smaller therefore that comparision is difficult.

radamfi · 14 Jul 2019

In Britain, having a direct service is more critical than in, say, the Netherlands, Belgium or Switzerland, because connections aren't planned to the same extent. For example, following British convention, Ronse doesn't have a service to Brussels, but there is a planned connection at Oudenaarde, meaning that Ronse effectively has an hourly service to Brussels (2 hourly on Sundays).

Struner · 14 Jul 2019

& what other places have these places direct connections to? You don't have to go to London to renew your passport or similar, do you?

Bletchleyite · 14 Jul 2019

tasky said:
Well OK, St Austell (pop. 19,800) has an hourly service to London and isn't a connecting station for anywhere. Of course there will be some example across Europe with similar service patterns, the point was just it's more common in the UK than many European countries (I'm most experienced with Belgium, Germany, France, Spain, Italy)

There are plenty of small places with direct hourly services to London, though - Cheddington is probably a fairly notable local one, Tring might also count (as Tring Station is a separate village) but is more of a Parkway - Cheddington is genuinely a "local station for local people" which is why hardly anybody uses it!

That said, I suppose there's nowhere convenient to terminate a service from there that isn't London, so it's a bit different from a station miles away from London that has a service to it. That said, Penrith has a smaller population than St Austell...I guess the stations between Lancaster and Carlisle are not dissimilar to the GW Cornish stations - small places but served out of a combination of convenience and high tourist demand.

HankyuDentetsu · 15 Jul 2019

On my time spent travelling on regional routes across Italy and Portugal, as well as limited experience in Germany and the US, our rolling stock in general seems newer, more comfortable, and cleaner. In general, excluding long distance inter-city travel, I find traveling by train in the UK to be a more comfortable experience overall than many other countries in Southern Europe. Regional travel in the US is just awful.

And having spent a great deal of time in Japan, for all their clear railway superiority, being able to break up journeys and enter/exit at intermediate stops is something they don't tend to allow (there are some exceptions) and it's such a pain, so the UK definitely has them beaten there! Our online services are also far superior.

U-Bahnfreund · 15 Jul 2019

Every UK TOC and even many bus companies have a Twitter account with reasonably good service. Much better than Germany as well (and probably quite a number of countries)

Struner · 15 Jul 2019

But that doesn't help people who think sparrows are a nuisance.

Ianno87 · 15 Jul 2019

U-Bahnfreund said:
Every UK TOC and even many bus companies have a Twitter account with reasonably good service. Much better than Germany as well (and probably quite a number of countries)

To be fair, that is a benefit of a fragmented industry - each TOC can be more locally-focused in such things.

paolo · 16 Jul 2019

I note not having “compulsory seat reservations” has been posted as an advantage.

Looking at it another way, aren’t these “no standing” services?

Is that bad? For example, would the Eurostar be improved if it removed compulsory seat allocation? If it gets busy, people sitting on the floor in the aisles or vestibules? This would be better?

radamfi · 16 Jul 2019

paolo said:
I note not having “compulsory seat reservations” has been posted as an advantage.

I suppose this only applies to certain countries and even there only to long distance services. Whilst long distance peak time services on the WCML, for example, are nominally walk on, long distance walk on fares are so prohibitively expensive that the only tickets that might be affordable are those that require compulsory reservation.

Adsy125 · 16 Jul 2019

paolo said:
Is that bad? For example, would the Eurostar be improved if it removed compulsory seat allocation? If it gets busy, people sitting on the floor in the aisles or vestibules? This would be better?

You end up desperately needing to get to Paris, your family are there and one of them has had a heart attack and is unlikely to make it. All the flights are full as are the trains (today) as it’s the middle of the summer and there’s an event, would you rather A) stand on Eurostar, B) Not go, but be happy in the knowledge that you would’ve had to stand otherwise... A bit extreme obviously but you get the point.
Personally I don’t really see a benefit to compulsory reservations, it limits the number of people on a train for no good reason, if I was desperate to go somewhere I would much rather stand that not get there at all, those who wants seats are welcome to wait.

edwin_m · 16 Jul 2019

Compulsory reservations are fine if each train has enough empty seats that people can be virtually guaranteed to get one if they have to book or switch at the last minute. But in that situation there's no real need to have compulsory reservations.

Bletchleyite · 16 Jul 2019

paolo said:
I note not having “compulsory seat reservations” has been posted as an advantage.

Looking at it another way, aren’t these “no standing” services?

Is that bad? For example, would the Eurostar be improved if it removed compulsory seat allocation? If it gets busy, people sitting on the floor in the aisles or vestibules? This would be better?

The problem with compulsory reservations is "sorry, mate, no seats for a week" - something you do get in countries operating that policy at busy times e.g. Christmas. Every year you get stories of people missing their family Christmas when flight chaos kicks off and there's not enough capacity to shift everyone in seats by the end of 24th. Has that ever happened on the railway, except, er, Eurostar?

duesselmartin · 17 Jul 2019

TGV Thalys Trenitalia. Experienced it in those.

Bletchleyite · 17 Jul 2019

duesselmartin said:
TGV Thalys Trenitalia. Experienced it in those.

Sorry...my slightly rhetorical question referred to the UK. Yes, I bet it does happen on other networks that operate compulsory reservations. That or you have to make some horribly convoluted journey on a stack of regional trains.

It doesn't happen in the UK (barring disastrous weather issues or strikes and Eurostar) which to me is something we get right

AlexNL · 17 Jul 2019

Isn't it standard practice for compulsory reservation trains to have a few spare seats, for cases like these? They won't be sold over the internet, but if someone turns up at the ticket office (or directly goes to the train and asks the train manager) they can buy a last-minute ticket?

Bletchleyite · 17 Jul 2019

AlexNL said:
Isn't it standard practice for compulsory reservation trains to have a few spare seats, for cases like these? They won't be sold over the internet, but if someone turns up at the ticket office (or directly goes to the train and asks the train manager) they can buy a last-minute ticket?

SNCF have the "strapontins" (tip-up seats in the vestibule) for such eventualities, but they aren't going to take a whole cancelled trainful.

JonasB · 17 Jul 2019

sheff1 said:
Equally, Newton Abbot would not have the service it does were it not (i) on the main line to/from Plymouth (ii) the connecting station for Torbay.

Maybe not, but Jönköping and Copenhagen are slightly larger than Torbay and Plymouth. And Nässjö is if I'm not mistaken the only Swedish station with passenger trains in six directions. On the other hand, I guess Torbay attracts quite a lot of visitors?

Things UK railways get right compared to other countries

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