Today I observed a train at Chertsey running with only tail lights in the front. I assume that they hadn't been changed at Weybridge but was wondering if there were any circumstances under which it would be acceptable for a service passenger train to run like this?
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Tail lights on front
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Bromley boy
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There are very limited rulebook scenarios where it is acceptable (wrong direction moves below a certain distance IIRC).
If you’ve seen a unit in general running with reds on the front it will have been done in error - surprisingly easy to do!
Usually swiftly pointed out and corrected by platform staff tapping their heads “headlight!” or drivers of other trains flashing their reds briefly.
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Kingspanner
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I have only seen this once, on a Pacer, at Dinsdale 1st stop out from the bay platform at Darlington. When I gestured to the driver he switched the lights over pretty quickly!
dk1
Veteran Member
Forgetting to change the front illumination is quite common & nothing a flash of the lights from a train in the opposite direction or a physical point/GSMR call from the signaller doesn't put right. Only human & all that.
I once observed a train whilst walking on a footpath between Longbeck and Marske stations that was heading towards Darlington with reds on the front. I made motions at the driver about it and I distinctly remember that the look on his face was very much "what on earth is this loony doing?!" only to change rapidly to a big smile and wave after he cottoned on a changed his lights over!
I guess it's particularly easy to do if you're on a tight turn around (or maybe even a zero turnaround) during disruption as I can easily see someone getting into the mind set of change ends and go go go!
I guess it's particularly easy to do if you're on a tight turn around (or maybe even a zero turnaround) during disruption as I can easily see someone getting into the mind set of change ends and go go go!
Desiro stock shouldn’t be possible to run with reds on the front with a key on. 458s on the other hand I’m not sure on.
I’ve seen several 377s with tails on the front, usually after terminating short and the driver rushing to open up the cab (although that could be classed as subjective).
There was an incident recently, I believe during a strike, where a unit left a terminus with whites on the tail, the driver IC’d the contingency guard and asked them to flick the whites to red, but the guard refused. Driver had to key off, walk formation and change the lights. Caused quite a big TIN if I remember.
I’ve seen several 377s with tails on the front, usually after terminating short and the driver rushing to open up the cab (although that could be classed as subjective).
There was an incident recently, I believe during a strike, where a unit left a terminus with whites on the tail, the driver IC’d the contingency guard and asked them to flick the whites to red, but the guard refused. Driver had to key off, walk formation and change the lights. Caused quite a big TIN if I remember.
Desiro will allow you to run with reds on at the front but nothing at the back - this is what the 380 is like, newer desiroCity units may be different. We have to go into the lighting page on the HMI screen to have reds front and rear.
GW43125
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I've seen 458s with reds on the front, and on one occasion a 450 with nothing on the front.
Once saw a cl-323 with pink lights on the rear. Turned out the driver had switched the tail lights on without turning the headlights off. Afaik cl-350 desirous headlights switch to tail lights when the driver's key is removed. They also extinguish/illuminate when units are coupled/uncoupled - seen this quite often at New Street recently.
Quite surprised how much main line stock only has manual controls for the external lights given that LT 1973 stock has the same feature as the cl-350
Quite surprised how much main line stock only has manual controls for the external lights given that LT 1973 stock has the same feature as the cl-350
Bletchleyite
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Presumably the benefit of them not automatically operating on couple/uncouple is that if a train split accidentally that might make it look complete to the signaller.
londonboi198o5
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If a unit was to split or uncouple from another unit it was coupled to it wouldn’t get very far as it was cause the emergency brake to apply on both Units
edwin_m
Veteran Member
I hope someone has thought of the hazard of the uncouple button being "pressed" due to human error or electrical fault, for example at a station within an Absolute Block section. The signaller at the next box might observe the auto-lit tail lamp and assume it's only one unit today instead of the usual two.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
Hopefully , however , things can go awry.
Sometime in the last century - "Track circuit failure" Cheddington one very early morning - following Freightliner on the up slow stopped and cautioned and asked to examine the line from BY xxx to BY xxx.
FLL driver calls in to say he has examined the line - and found the defect - unit 150xxx - which had become uncoupled from it's southbound empty stock train. No tail light either. There had been some discrepancies shall we say , in coupling and train preparation. The rest of the train was stopped at Hemel Hempstead where the driver confirmed he had 4 coaches , not 6.
Pretty unusual to have a "swinger" on the back - but not impossible. Happened with "fitted" freight trains I recall.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
I once got some kudos as a trainee , in spotting a passing freight from a signal box , which had tail lights illuminated on the class 47 , with the 25+ tank wagons following. (which had a proper tail lamp on the rear wagon) - it was an excellent opportunity to bell on "stop and examine" , followed by a good discussion on the need to examine passing trains.
"Never turn your back on a departing train , and always check each passing train" - (as per the 1972 Rulebook) , very wise words from a very experienced District Inspector.
"Never turn your back on a departing train , and always check each passing train" - (as per the 1972 Rulebook) , very wise words from a very experienced District Inspector.
Eccles1983
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Not exactly.
If the EBS has been raised in some units in the leading cab then the front portion will carry on as if nothing happened.
londonboi198o5
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There is no hazard for many reasons
1. If a unit was to split then both units would have brakes automatically apply
2. If a unit were to split and for some reason the front unit was to drive away leaving the rear portion behind then the rear portion would show that track as occupied so wouldn’t take to long to work out what happened
3. Majority of signal boxes are closed and it’s all done from signal centres now so a signal let wouldn’t see any tail lights
Eccles1983
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Again not exactly correct.
If auto lights came on with a divided unit in an area not controlled by track circuits or axle counters then it's possible for a signaller to send another unit into an occupied section.
I'm not sure where your confidence comes from, as operationally it is very possible in some areas for the above to take place, and the exact reason why if an EBS is raised why the guard has to travel in the rear unit for emergency protection purposes.
1. Not necessarily, for example if the EBS has been raised
2. Not in non-track circuited areas, for example most Absolute Block & Electric Token Block sections
3. See my answer to 2, where signallers are required to watch the train pass complete with tail lamp before sending 'train out of section'
Bletchleyite
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Not on an Absolute Block line it wouldn't. There aren't many left but they do still exist.
And RETB.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
As well as the other reasons mentioned, the scenario I posted was of the uncoupler button being pressed unintentionally (for example by a passenger crammed into the back cab, something that has happened to me on a crush-loaded Hope Valley service). If the unit in question automatically lit its tail lights on "intentional" uncoupling then an important safeguard would be lost.
ExRes
Established Member
What surprised me was seeing a pair of 377s leaving with tail lights on the rear of the leading unit, I was used to lights automatically extinguishing on Meridians as soon as you made the electrical connection between sets, for the life of me I can't remember what 325s did in multiple though, too many years ago now ....
edwin_m
Veteran Member
I this on a parcels train in Derby (in the days when such things existed) and having attracted the driver's attention he thanked me and said it must have been like that since St Pancras.
trainmania100
Established Member
Here's my video of a class 377 with tail lights at both ends, running on the "wrong" line from Brighton to Lewes. Might be of interest.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
Hopefully not in manual signalling days on the MML , whereas some conversations would have been had by the relevant DI's to various signalmen.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
319's with no marker lights , or reds on the front coming out of the non-track circuited turnback at SAC was not that uncommon - reported several , often informally by catching the drivers eye and pointing with one hand at the front end , and at your eyes with the other. They got the message. Once with a "thanks mate" over the PA when moving off , after the mandatory running brake test, - or a soft horn tone.
And surely a few drivers on the up flicking their marker lights. Although in days of parcels trains maybe there was nothing coming the other way!
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