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Freight train wreck in USA

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AndrewE

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ac6000cw

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Isn't there a freight derailment daily over there, or is it weekly?

While you're musing on that, remember that US railroads handle around 100 times as much freight as UK FOC's (based on ton/tonne-miles/km), so you would expect the derailment frequency to be much higher than it is in the UK.

As best as I can find, the statistical US derailment rate is around 1 per billion gross-ton-miles, and US railroads move about 1700 billion gross-ton-miles per annum. So that implies about 4-5 derailments per day - obviously the vast majority are minor ones. As a crude comparison, in 2017 the RAIB started investigations into 3 serious freight derailments, and anther freight incident that caused serious infrastructure damage (and could easily have become a derailment).
 
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AndrewE

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While you're musing on that, remember that US railroads handle around 100 times as much freight as UK FOC's (based on ton/tonne-miles/km), so you would expect the derailment frequency to be much higher than it is in the UK.
I don't think I agree with that. Derailments are not a function of train-miles run, but of track condition and rolling stock maintenance standards. You see videos of their freight trains on minor lines or maybe long sidings rolling so badly that it's hard to see how they get (or afford the premiums for) any insurance cover. I hope none of my savings are "invested" in any US insurance companies.
 

ac6000cw

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Derailments are not a function of train-miles run, but of track condition and rolling stock maintenance standards.

Yes, of course some proportion of derailments are due to track and rolling stock defects, but for equivalent standards of maintenance if you run 100 times more ton-miles (or 'axle miles') you are statistically likely to have 100 times more derailments due to those causes.

You see videos of their freight trains on minor lines or maybe long sidings rolling so badly

Yes, sure you can (if you go looking for them), but the vast majority of US rail freight traffic runs on mainlines (at speeds up to 70 mph and with axle loads over 30 tonnes) over track that is much the same as you would find on a modern railway anywhere (two different views below of the same general location on Tehachapi Pass in California - click on the images for a larger view):
Woodford Head to Head by ac6044cw, on Flickr
The Sweep of the Rails by ac6044cw, on Flickr

If you want to check for train rock'n'roll, below is video of the exact same train as in the second photo (view from 2:30 onwards for the same location) - yes, it's going slowly because it's climbing a long, twisty 2.2% gradient:
 

AndrewE

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Yes, of course some proportion of derailments are due to track and rolling stock defects, but for equivalent standards of maintenance if you run 100 times more ton-miles (or 'axle miles') you are statistically likely to have 100 times more derailments due to those causes.
Probably not. There will be a threshold of track and wagon maintenance above which derailments are highly improbable no matter how much traffic there is (we hope UK is in this league), and another below which they are almost certain - & this is where derailment frequency probably correlates with distance run. It certainly looks as though US track or wagon maintenance standards are way down if there is a derailment weekly.
 

MarcVD

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If you want to check for train rock'n'roll, below is video of the exact same train as in the second photo (view from 2:30 onwards for the same location) - yes, it's going slowly because it's climbing a long, twisty 2.2% gradient:

That is, in my opinion, one of the main differences between US and EUR railways : the right of way in EUR was usually built with much higher standards in terms of gradients and curvature. Most US rail lines were built on the cheap with the objective to arrive first and collect land grants, so tunnels and bridges were avoided unless absolutely necessary, by following the natural ground very closely. And it is certain that tight curves and steep gradients are a good source of accidents, specially with very long and heavy trains.
 

ac6000cw

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Most US rail lines were built on the cheap with the objective to arrive first and collect land grants,
They were building railways (particularly west of the Mississippi) to tie the country together, so yes, financial incentives and low first cost were important to attract the investment money to get them built. Europe had heavily populated/industrialised cities and towns before railways were invented, so there was good traffic potential from the beginning (making it much easier to get people to invest in them, and builders could justify more expensive engineering to reduce future operating costs) - that wasn't the case in large areas of the US. For example, traffic on the original Union Pacific/Central Pacific transcontinental route was quite low for years after it was completed, and building the Central Pacific part of it over the Sierra Nevada mountains (it's about 80 miles from Roseville to the summit at Donner Pass, at an average gradient of about 1.5%) cost a small fortune to build using an army of largely Chinese workers.
 

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All very interesting, but this is now the 21st century: how and why it was built isn't really relevant to why they have so many and such destructive freight train wrecks!
 

axlecounter

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All very interesting, but this is now the 21st century: how and why it was built isn't really relevant to why they have so many and such destructive freight train wrecks!

I’d say a lot of extremely long and extremely heavy trains with remote controlled locos here and there which are far more difficult to handle than our typical 5-600 metres freight. You probably are in situations where while with an EU freight nothing would happen, with those trains at the slightest mishap incidents are bound to happen.
Money (not) invested in the railways surely also plays a big part, at least regarding safety systems
 

AndrewE

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I’d say a lot of extremely long and extremely heavy trains with remote controlled locos here and there which are far more difficult to handle than our typical 5-600 metres freight. You probably are in situations where while with an EU freight nothing would happen, with those trains at the slightest mishap incidents are bound to happen.
Money (not) invested in the railways surely also plays a big part, at least regarding safety systems
I expect they probably have have learnt to work long trains with remote-controlled locos along the length, or are you saying that they have set out on a path where they expect their traction policy to cause wrecks?
I am sure that freight train wrecks are expected to be zero in Switzerland, we don't expect any in the UK, but probably recognise that minor derailments happen in sidings where maintenance might be poor (and that is only if the management prioritise cost savings over reliability...)
As I said up-thread, I think there is a lower maintenance standard above which you would not expect any derailments to occur.
 

axlecounter

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Not saying they haven’t learned to run those trains, but 10’000tons of rolling railroad wagons are not really something you handle easily, even with the best experience and/or technology.
For how bad rail traffic in the US looks I can’t imagine them running freights at line speed over bad-maintained infrastructure. Not more than here at least.
If you have statistics at hand it’s time to bring them out. ;)
 

MarcVD

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All very interesting, but this is now the 21st century: how and why it was built isn't really relevant to why they have so many and such destructive freight train wrecks!

Of course it is relevant ! Those steep gradients and sharp curves of the 19th century are, for most of them, still there today, and pose operational difficulties that were not even imagined when the lines were built.
 

AndrewE

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Not saying they haven’t learned to run those trains, but 10’000tons of rolling railroad wagons are not really something you handle easily, even with the best experience and/or technology.
For how bad rail traffic in the US looks I can’t imagine them running freights at line speed over bad-maintained infrastructure. Not more than here at least.
If you have statistics at hand it’s time to bring them out. ;)
The trunk lines may well be fit for purpose but others obviously aren't. The point is that some of the infrastructure is so poor that almost no linespeed is safe (unless you can cope with a schedule that doesn't exceed walking pace.)

Of course it is relevant ! Those steep gradients and sharp curves of the 19th century are, for most of them, still there today, and pose operational difficulties that were not even imagined when the lines were built.
But power distributed along the train, continuous braking etc mitigate the difficulties. If curvature is too sharp for the train length with locos just at the front then they split them up along the train. If they can't make it work then they are stuck running shorter trains.
The sand train pile-up looked to be on straight level track, and is probably explained by something jumping off the track near the front and the rest piling into it before the brakes took effect, or at least until the energy absorbed by the trucks being shoved out of line slowed the rest up so that they stayed on the track.
 

ac6000cw

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My comments on US freight train derailment rates in post #3 were derived from this research paper - http://railtec.illinois.edu/wp/wp-c...tes for railroad safety and risk analysis.pdf

The rail freight ton-mile/tonne-km official statistics come from https://www.bts.gov/us-ton-miles-freight and https://assets.publishing.service.g...ta/file/787488/tsgb-2018-report-summaries.pdf

Some info on US federal track classification, speed limits and inspection frequencies is here - https://trn.trains.com/railroads/abcs-of-railroading/2006/05/track-classifications

UK RAIB Annual Report for 2017, which listed 3 serious freight derailments that year is here - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/raib-annual-report-published-2018/annual-report-for-2017

US NTSB list of rail accident reports is here - https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/railroad.aspx

So have fun doing some research ;)

P.S. there are about 1.5 million rail freight vehicles registered in North America (US, Canada and Mexico), and about 30,000 locomotives in use to haul them. Total US rail route mileage is about 140,000 versus about 10,000 in the UK.
 

ac6000cw

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The point is that some of the infrastructure is so poor that almost no linespeed is safe (unless you can cope with a schedule that doesn't exceed walking pace.)

Part of the reason there is quite a bit of low-speed trackage in the US is that having reasonably direct access to the rail network is still considered economically important, particularly for people like grain growers - so I'll use that as an example.

While the major railroads run a network of large unit (block) grain trains, serving big grain elevators (storage facilities) along their mainlines, substantial parts of the network of secondary routes and branch lines that covered, for example, the 'prairie' states got sold off or leased to small 'shortline' railroads (or sometimes local authorities) in the 70's and 80's. Basically the big boys said 'we can't operate these lines economically, so we'll let someone else have a go, otherwise we'll apply (to the federal government regulator) to abandon them'.

As you can probably guess, shortlines have to be pretty low-cost operations to survive, so they generally maintain the track at the minimum standard that allows them to carry what traffic they have. At the end of the day the choice might well be a 10 mph railroad or no railroad at all - and trucking grain to the nearest big rail-served grain elevator is generally more expensive than moving it by rail from a local grain elevator. Although this sounds like a 'race to the bottom' situation, it's basically just the reality of operating - generally quite modest length - freight trains in that sort of economic environment.
 
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philabos

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This has been quite a discussion. What actually happened in connection with the sand train is still unknown, but the investigation appears to focus on equipment. The DP power could certainly be a contributing factor with regard to the severity.
The main lines in the US are in better condition than they have ever been in the past. I am not sure where all the turkey trail theories are coming from, but it is certainly based on imagination, not fact.

I started in this industry in the late 60's. One railroad actually had a derailment on a stationary train. Happily with deregulation the railroads started coming back in the early 80's. Mass consolidation took place, just like in the airline industry, and money started flowing to infrastructure again.

It is very difficult to compare the two countries, the U.K. has a passenger railway that handles some freight and the US is the reverse.
 

ac6000cw

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The main lines in the US are in better condition than they have ever been in the past. I am not sure where all the turkey trail theories are coming from, but it is certainly based on imagination, not fact.

I started in this industry in the late 60's. One railroad actually had a derailment on a stationary train. Happily with deregulation the railroads started coming back in the early 80's. Mass consolidation took place, just like in the airline industry, and money started flowing to infrastructure again.

I'd agree with that - based on the photos and comments I've seen, the state of some of the track on railroads like the Rock Island, Milwaukee and Penn Central when they were heading for bankruptcy in the late 60s/early 70s was in the 'barely usable' category, but it's a different world today (I've been visiting the US occasionally for the last 30 years, so I've seen the changes myself).
 
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