SWR blaming passenger who requires assistance for cancellation

George109 · 31 Jul 2019

From this tweet by SWR explaining the reason for the cancellation of this train

Hi Ryan, I am sorry for this. This service is running fast as it has been stuck behind a late running train and there was an unbooked passenger assistance. Apologies for the delay to your journey. ^MC

Seems a bit naughty to blame a person who requires assistance for a train cancellation who has the right to just turn up and go? Especially as the train was late anyway...

Even if the passenger had booked ahead surely it'd take them the same amount of time to get on the train? Is this an overreaction?

RailUK Forums

Clip · 31 Jul 2019

George109 said:
Is this an overreaction?

Possibly on your behalf but I wouldnt think so overall.

George109 said:
Even if the passenger had booked ahead surely it'd take them the same amount of time to get on the train?

If it was booked then if a ramp was needed along with a staff member then they wouldve ( ok shouldve) been on the platform with teh ramp all set and ready to go, however if not prebooked then they may have had to find a member of staff who would then have to go get the ramp all which takes considerably more time to sort than it does with prebooked assistance - which is why its ideal to book ahead if possible to do so

Twotwo · 31 Jul 2019

Only thing I can think off is there was probably no station staff and the passenger probably came as soon as the train had arrived and the guard was fluffing about finding the ramp.

yorkie · 31 Jul 2019

George109 said:
From this tweet by SWR explaining the reason for the cancellation of this train

Seems a bit naughty to blame a person who requires assistance for a train cancellation who has the right to just turn up and go? Especially as the train was late anyway...

People want reasons for delays; that isn't the same as "blaming".

I suspect the staff will be told to keep this delay reason quiet in future (but less detail won't please everyone; see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/late-from-the-depot.186825/ )

George109 said:
Even if the passenger had booked ahead surely it'd take them the same amount of time to get on the train?

Not necessarily.

George109 said:
Is this an overreaction?

An overreaction by who? Some of the people responding? Absolutely.

Also an overreaction from the original person; the train was running 9 mins late, so a departure from Norbiton of 1115. The next train was at 1120, ie. the decision to run the train fast cost Norbiton passengers 5 minutes of delay compared to running the train as booked. I guess SWR should have said it was due to a longer than usual dwell time at a station (without saying why), but I doubt the passenger would have been happy with that.

George109 · 31 Jul 2019

yorkie said:
An overreaction by who?

The replies on twitter, sorry didn't make this clear

Sorry, I'm on mobile so I can't quote all the replies.

Basically feels like public shaming of a disabled passenger that's all

Aictos · 31 Jul 2019

Def a over reaction by some of the following tweeters!

HotelNovember · 31 Jul 2019

Probably not a good idea to publicly broadcast that reason, even when it is correct.

Unfortunately, that doesn’t change the reason for the delay, and that is what it the delay attribution will go down to.

pompeyfan · 31 Jul 2019

If staff had said ‘due to a passenger requiring assistance’ would people be as upset by that?

al78 · 31 Jul 2019

George109 said:
The replies on twitter, sorry didn't make this clear
View attachment 66478
Sorry, I'm on mobile so I can't quote all the replies.

Basically feels like public shaming of a disabled passenger that's all

Looks to me like a lot of people chose to board the outrage bus.

Stating the reason for a delay that a disabled passenger required assistance is not the same as blaming that passenger. Blame implies carelessness or malice, which is clearly not the case. Unfortunately in the emotion before logic world we live in, people just don't get it.

It is good to stand up for vulnerable members of society, but going overboard and trying to turn them into victims at any opportunity doesn't help them.

George109 · 31 Jul 2019

Just seems like tactless wording, I'm sure people would have less reaction to a passenger requiring assistance rather than blaming the disabled

yorkie · 31 Jul 2019

George109 said:
Just seems like tactless wording, I'm sure people would have less reaction to a passenger requiring assistance rather than blaming the disabled

They said "an unbooked passenger assistance" , so I assume you mean the word "unbooked" implies "blame" whereas requiring assistance by itself does not imply any blame.

The word "blame" means "responsibility for a fault or wrong", but I am not sure anyone is actually saying that. I think people are choosing to interpret it in that way.

ComUtoR · 31 Jul 2019

George109 said:
Just seems like tactless wording, I'm sure people would have less reaction to a passenger requiring assistance rather than blaming the disabled

Where did SWR say the passenger who required assistance was disabled ?

The TOC was being honest about the REASON why there was a delay and eventual cancellation. Maybe they should have said 'operational reasons' :rolleyes:

nuts & bolts · 31 Jul 2019

George109 said:
Just seems like tactless wording, I'm sure people would have less reaction to a passenger requiring assistance rather than blaming the disabled

Again we don't know if the passenger was disabled, they may have just required help with luggage!

ComUtoR said:
Where did SWR say the passenger who required assistance was disabled.

The TOC was being honest about the REASON why there was a delay and eventual cancellation. Maybe they should have said 'operational reasons'

There are no codes, acronyms or generic reasons when dealing with delay attribution when the info is posted on social media or info boards, hence the passenger was not discriminated. He or she required assistance - turn up and go but a delay was incurred.

Bantamzen · 31 Jul 2019

al78 said:
Looks to me like a lot of people chose to board the outrage bus.

Stating the reason for a delay that a disabled passenger required assistance is not the same as blaming that passenger. Blame implies carelessness or malice, which is clearly not the case. Unfortunately in the emotion before logic world we live in, people just don't get it.

It is good to stand up for vulnerable members of society, but going overboard and trying to turn them into victims at any opportunity doesn't help them.

The bus to Outrage has become so popular in the last few years that First, Stagecoach, Arriva & Transdev are all competing to bid for it.....

Seriously though as others have articulated, SWR were simply giving the reason for the delay, something that has been argued for on other threads here. There is no blame attached to the passenger, nor should there be, its just a matter of fact statement. Someone needing on the spot assistance resulta in a longer than expected dwell. Ah Social Media, where people do love to make a drama out of other people's lives these days!

Darandio · 31 Jul 2019

ComUtoR said:
The TOC was being honest about the REASON why there was a delay and eventual cancellation. Maybe they should have said 'operational reasons'

Well quite. How many recent threads on here with people aghast at TOC's being far too generic with their reasons, they then tell the reason specifically and get shredded* for it. No win situation.

*I appreciate such a reaction is on Twitter and not here, I just found it somewhat ironic given all the related discussion here of late.

Busaholic · 31 Jul 2019

You don't have to be disabled to require assistance - over the years I provided assistance to three or four people who'd tripped on an awkward curb opposite my shop/home, mostly a seat and glass of water, but in one case an ambulance needed to be called. I'd like to think if I was in the same situation that someone might help, particularly as I now have multiple sclerosis.

Helvellyn · 31 Jul 2019

If it were a passenger in a wheelchair being unbooked means the Guard could have equally been moving bikes out of the wheelchair are. Or luggage. Or a baby buggy. Could even have been occupied by another wheelchair so the Guard had to take them to another space on the train.

LowLevel · 1 Aug 2019

Helvellyn said:
If it were a passenger in a wheelchair being unbooked means the Guard could have equally been moving bikes out of the wheelchair are. Or luggage. Or a baby buggy. Could even have been occupied by another wheelchair so the Guard had to take them to another space on the train.

Which, as an aside, is why we need a step change in mentality in this country to stop seeing the wheelchair spaces as convenient extra luggage storage.

I'm sick of having to deal with people stacking 10 or 15 suitcases in the wheelchair spaces and then declaring 'it's fine, I'll move them if someone needs the space'.

People won't spend any time looking for luggage space, they will just dump it in the first location they come to regardless of signage.

It is of course at least partly the train operator and the DfT to blame as they pared down luggage space to nothing on many trains in the relentless quest for headline seating figures but still.

Edders23 · 1 Aug 2019

I realise this was a reason for delay BUT why cancel a train just for that surely the rail regulator will pick up on this. Disabled passengers come with the job I deal with plenty every day and yes they do require more time than a normal passenger but that is being caring and helpful

I assume the cancellation meant the disabled passenger didn't get to their destination either perhaps if it was such a big issue someone should have arranged to get them onto a following service with staff in place to assist

edwin_m · 1 Aug 2019

Bantamzen said:
The bus to Outrage has become so popular in the last few years that First, Stagecoach, Arriva & Transdev are all competing to bid for it.....

The bus to Outrage is now deregulated so anybody can run it without having to demonstrate any qualifications.

pompeyfan · 1 Aug 2019

Edders23 said:
I realise this was a reason for delay BUT why cancel a train just for that surely the rail regulator will pick up on this. Disabled passengers come with the job I deal with plenty every day and yes they do require more time than a normal passenger but that is being caring and helpful

I assume the cancellation meant the disabled passenger didn't get to their destination either perhaps if it was such a big issue someone should have arranged to get them onto a following service with staff in place to assist

I would imagine the train, or ones behind it were run fast rather than cancelled to make up lost time.

AlterEgo · 1 Aug 2019

Darandio said:
Well quite. How many recent threads on here with people aghast at TOC's being far too generic with their reasons, they then tell the reason specifically and get shredded* for it. No win situation.

*I appreciate such a reaction is on Twitter and not here, I just found it somewhat ironic given all the related discussion here of late.

It's an art - they should have just said "a passenger requiring assistance". It's unlikely they had it, but PR training would have told the person tweeting about the optics of the word "unbooked", which was an unnecessary piece of info to add in the circumstances.

kristiang85 · 1 Aug 2019

As much as I despise SWR, I can't see much wrong with that tweet. They get people complaining that they are never informed of specific reasons for delays, and when they do then people still complain. Trial by Twitter.

Starmill · 1 Aug 2019

Trains probably shouldn't be delayed by the need to comply with their operator's basic legal duties... Perhaps a couple of minutes, but if the delay is so long that the train then has to skip stops, it seems likely there was a problem. What makes me say this is the way they highlight that it was an unbooked assist.

bnm · 1 Aug 2019

Highlighting the fact this was 'unbooked' assistance is wrong.

If assistance is required then it should be given, booked or unbooked. The knock on consequences of that are for the rail industry to mitigate and allow for.

Internal communications show that this was a disabled passenger requiring assistance. Their decision to travel unbooked carries no blame, subtextually or otherwise.

pt_mad · 2 Aug 2019

AlterEgo said:
It's an art - they should have just said "a passenger requiring assistance". It's unlikely they had it, but PR training would have told the person tweeting about the optics of the word "unbooked", which was an unnecessary piece of info to add in the circumstances.

The delay attribution guide for TOPS delay coding has two seperate reason codes, one for booked assist, one for unbooked. So the railway system makes the differentiation. Could it have been that the tweeter simply looked up the reason on TOPs and relayed it exactly as it appeared?

cuccir · 2 Aug 2019

Both things are true: the post is at best poorly worded, and some of the replies unnecessary. After a high profile individual such as Tanni Grey-Thompson has responded, I think further replies are unhelpful pile-ons.

The mistake is in individualizing the delay, it does imply responsibility on the individual, whereas arguably responsibility lies with TOCs to have better procedures for boarding individuals who need assistance. "Delays in boarding" or "Delays at a station" would cover it.

Not crime of the century, but hopefully a chance for the TOC to learn

Mrs. Fortescue · 2 Aug 2019

Poorly worded from them.

pt_mad · 2 Aug 2019

cuccir said:
The mistake is in individualizing the delay, it does imply responsibility on the individual, whereas arguably responsibility lies with TOCs to have better procedures for boarding individuals who need assistance. "Delays in boarding" or "Delays at a station" would cover it.

Not crime of the century, but hopefully a chance for the TOC to learn

The point is, the electronic industry wide rail system, TOPs has the delay reason entered into it by signallers or controls for reference later. And a delay with an assist is either coded with the reason booked assist, or unbooked assist.
So if there's issue with there being a differentiation between the two then are people saying the railway system ought to be changed so it doesn't make the distinction?
A person being asked about a delay is likely to look at the reason for the delay on the TOPs national computer and say what it says.

SWR blaming passenger who requires assistance for cancellation

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