LNER Lincoln services - September 2019

Just trying to work out when HSTs will end on the Lincoln runs.

a) Helpful link above https://www.lner.co.uk/news/lincoln-trains/ says new services start 21st October
Azuma trains will begin operating weekday services in each direction alongside the existing daily LNER High Speed Train (HST) service from 21 October, with tickets on sale from Friday 30 August.

Which implies the HST diagram is retained for a while after 21 October, with the other diagrams switching to Azumas AND being extended beyond Newark to Lincoln at the same time?

"The current 07:30 Lincoln to London and return service from London at 19:06 will be replaced by an Azuma train later in the year as the transformation of LNER services on the route continues."
so it is not clear if that would even happen for certain at the December timetable change...

b) EMRs paper timetables show the new services running from 9 Sept (alongside EMRs services of course). Is it right to assume 9 sept was original planned start date but that has been put back (after EMR printed such paper timetables)

9/9 was the proposed start date and appeared in Real Time Trains as so. Now delayed until October it seems.

WesternLancer said:

Just trying to work out when HSTs will end on the Lincoln runs.

a) Helpful link above https://www.lner.co.uk/news/lincoln-trains/ says new services start 21st October
Azuma trains will begin operating weekday services in each direction alongside the existing daily LNER High Speed Train (HST) service from 21 October, with tickets on sale from Friday 30 August.

Which implies the HST diagram is retained for a while after 21 October, with the other diagrams switching to Azumas AND being extended beyond Newark to Lincoln at the same time?

"The current 07:30 Lincoln to London and return service from London at 19:06 will be replaced by an Azuma train later in the year as the transformation of LNER services on the route continues."
so it is not clear if that would even happen for certain at the December timetable change...

b) EMRs paper timetables show the new services running from 9 Sept (alongside EMRs services of course). Is it right to assume 9 sept was original planned start date but that has been put back (after EMR printed such paper timetables)

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I was struggling to interpret that. But I suspect it will be one of the later services to go. I think it is currently diagramed into the north of Edinburgh services. Which I understand will be in the new year. I guess the change of timetable in December may be the time when the hst’s are getting to the end of the lease.

Are the the new Lincoln Services going to be operated by 5 car or 9/10 car azuma's?

Considering they aren't exclusively working the Lincoln trains in the diagrams they surely have to be 9/10 car trains as I find it hard to believe a 5 car azuma will provide sufficient capacity for operating the 14:33 train service to Leeds for example.

Peregrine 4903 said:

Are the the new Lincoln Services going to be operated by 5 car or 9/10 car azuma's?

Considering they aren't exclusively working the Lincoln trains in the diagrams they surely have to be 9/10 car trains as I find it hard to believe a 5 car azuma will provide sufficient capacity for operating the 14:33 train service to Leeds for example.

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5. I think they will split / join at kings cross

You'd certainly need very selective door opening to fit a 9 or 10 car Azuma into the platforms at Lincoln Central, and crossovers at one or other end of the station would be blocked while one was there.

AndyW33 said:

You'd certainly need very selective door opening to fit a 9 or 10 car Azuma into the platforms at Lincoln Central, and crossovers at one or other end of the station would be blocked while one was there.

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I will see soon. But I suspect a 5 car will take up the whole platform. At least a 9 car they can use SDO. But as you say a 10 car you would need to try and get some of each set on the platform. The only time I suspect they may have more passengers than seats from Lincoln is during the Christmas Market.

I remember in the British rail days of the “Humber-lincs” they train rarely left Lincoln with more than 250 passengers on board. (Starting back from cleethorpes)

Failed Unit said:

I will see soon. But I suspect a 5 car will take up the whole platform. At least a 9 car they can use SDO. But as you say a 10 car you would need to try and get some of each set on the platform. The only time I suspect they may have more passengers than seats from Lincoln is during the Christmas Market.

I remember in the British rail days of the “Humber-lincs” they train rarely left Lincoln with more than 250 passengers on board. (Starting back from cleethorpes)

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But Lincoln is a very different city than back in BR days, especially with the university. It really is buzzing these days and very much need sa vastly better train service.

class26 said:

But Lincoln is a very different city than back in BR days, especially with the university. It really is buzzing these days and very much need sa vastly better train service.

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Don’t dispute that but still can’t see Lincoln filling more than 200 seats regularly, even with connections from Grimsby.

Failed Unit said:

5. I think they will split / join at kings cross

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Thankyou for replying. It makes a lot of sesne that they will join units at Kings Cross, although I am wondering where they are going to get the over 5 car unit from? I presume another service although I find it hard to believe many other LNER services will be operated by 5 car units that don't run to Lincoln or one from Bounds Green Depot?

Well i do think it is going to take a time to build up the passenger figures as at the moment, for obvious reason most just jump in their cars and drive to Newark. The one a day out and back to Kings X isn`t enough. Old habits will take a time to change for sure.

I also hope when the new timetable comes out they have better paths between Newark and Lincoln as for those at the moment for the new services some outward trains have long waits at Newark for a path south. i presume they have to depart Lincoln when they do as platform space is required ?
When the present solitary Kings X service started it left Lincoln at 07.20 and was usually in Newark by 07.40 (ish) and then sat until o7.55. I suspect many decided to have a few minutes extra in bed and drive to Newark ? It now departs Lincoln at 07.30 and still arrive sin London at the same time so the long wait at Newark has gone thankfully.

Peregrine 4903 said:

Thankyou for replying. It makes a lot of sesne that they will join units at Kings Cross, although I am wondering where they are going to get the over 5 car unit from? I presume another service although I find it hard to believe many other LNER services will be operated by 5 car units that don't run to Lincoln or one from Bounds Green Depot?

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I think the train will come from Leeds as 10 car. 5 will head to Lincoln. 5 to Bounds Green.

It is feasible that the until could return.

Example
1006 London - Lincoln
132? Lincoln - London arrive 1524 so could return at 1606.

Most of the Lincoln arrivals could just return to Lincoln without needing joining

In one respect at the moment the 1006 could be ECS from Bounds Green.

Does anybody remember when the Grimsby/Cleethorpes service stopped? It definitely ran during the mid 1980s. If they did an early morning from Grimsby and evening return could the Azuma be stabled there overnight or would it have to run ECS to Doncaster depot?

Boysteve said:

Does anybody remember when the Grimsby/Cleethorpes service stopped? It definitely ran during the mid 1980s.

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May 1993 if I remember correctly.

Severe cutbacks to the service in Lincolnshire took place in 1992.

Peregrine 4903 said:

Thankyou for replying. It makes a lot of sesne that they will join units at Kings Cross, although I am wondering where they are going to get the over 5 car unit from? I presume another service although I find it hard to believe many other LNER services will be operated by 5 car units that don't run to Lincoln or one from Bounds Green Depot?

Click to expand...

Failed Unit said:

I think the train will come from Leeds as 10 car. 5 will head to Lincoln. 5 to Bounds Green.

It is feasible that the until could return.

Example
1006 London - Lincoln
132? Lincoln - London arrive 1524 so could return at 1606.

Most of the Lincoln arrivals could just return to Lincoln without needing joining

In one respect at the moment the 1006 could be ECS from Bounds Green.

Click to expand...

It looks as if, by 21 October, based on the current information in the LNER booking engine that the following Leeds services are 10-car

1A01 0505 Leeds to London Kings Cross 0730 (10)
1D05 0803 London Kings Cross to Leeds 1016 (10)
1A25 1045 Leeds to London Kings Cross 1301 (10)
1D17 1403 London Kings Cross to Leeds 1616 (10)
1A41 1645 Leeds to London Kings Cross 1901 (10)
1D30 1933 London Kings Cross to Leeds 2147 (10)

1D01 0555 London Kings Cross to Leeds 0822 (10)
1A18 0845 Leeds to London Kings Cross 1101 (10)
1D12 1133 London Kings Cross to Leeds 1348 (10)
1A34 1415 Leeds to London Kings Cross 1633 (10)
1D23 1703 London Kings Cross to Leeds 1917 (10)
1A50 1945 Leeds to London Kings Cross 2159 (10)

1D20 1533 London Kings Cross to Leeds 1750 (10)
1A46 1815 Leeds to London Kings Cross 2031 (10)

There is one other working from Leeds which appears to be a 10-car.

1A06 0640 Leeds to London Kings Cross 0851 (10)

One option is that this could split for the 1006 and 1206 from Kings Cross to Lincoln but it blocks a platform at Kings Cross for three hours (unless the second unit goes out to Ferme Park or Bounds Green).

The 1006 from Kings Cross appears to work:
1B82 1006 London Kings Cross to Lincoln Central 1204 (5)
1B85 1323 Lincoln Central to London Kings Cross 1523 (5)
1B88 1606 London Kings Cross to Lincoln Central 1808 (5)
5B88 18+13 Lincoln Central to Lincoln Terrace C.H.S. 1817
5D88 18+46 Lincoln Terrace C.H.S. to Doncaster Carr Iep Depot 2022

The 1206 from Kings Cross appears to work:
1B84 1206 London Kings Cross to Lincoln Central 1407 (5)
1B87 1526 Lincoln Central to London Kings Cross 1723 (5)

A third 5-car appears to work:
3B83 09+49 Doncaster Carr Iep Depot to Lincoln Central 1109 (5)
1B83 1118 Lincoln Central to London Kings Cross 1323 (5)
1B86 1406 London Kings Cross to Lincoln Central 1603 (5)
1B89 1714 Lincoln Central to London Kings Cross 1923 (5)

It doesn't seem likely that arrivals at 1723 and 1923 are going to wait for form a northbound 10-car but there does need to be a northbound 10-car to balance. There are a few 'unknown' workings to Leeds in the booking engine which aren't available to book at the moment but are shown as Azumas.

1A07 0630 Bradford Forster Square to London Kings Cross 0859 (unknown)
1D08 0933 London Kings Cross to Leeds 1148 (unknown)
1A29 1215 Leeds to London Kings Cross 1431 (unknown)
1D19 1503 London Kings Cross to Leeds 1716 (unknown)
1A45 1745 Leeds to London Kings Cross 2001 (unknown)

1D18 1433 London Kings Cross to Leeds 1649 (unknown)
1A43 1714 Leeds to London Kings Cross 1932 (unknown)
1D31 2003 London Kings Cross to Leeds 2221 (unknown)

1D26 1803 London Kings Cross to Skipton 2119 (unknown)

It is clearly possible that a few empty workings aren't yet in RTT. If all of these are 10-car (the Bradford and Skipton possibly joining or splitting at Leeds), it would all appear to balance.

But this is all guesswork of course.

JonathanH said:

It looks as if, by 21 October, based on the current information in the LNER booking engine that the following Leeds services are 10-car

1A01 0505 Leeds to London Kings Cross 0730 (10)
1D05 0803 London Kings Cross to Leeds 1016 (10)
1A25 1045 Leeds to London Kings Cross 1301 (10)
1D17 1403 London Kings Cross to Leeds 1616 (10)
1A41 1645 Leeds to London Kings Cross 1901 (10)
1D30 1933 London Kings Cross to Leeds 2147 (10)

1D01 0555 London Kings Cross to Leeds 0822 (10)
1A18 0845 Leeds to London Kings Cross 1101 (10)
1D12 1133 London Kings Cross to Leeds 1348 (10)
1A34 1415 Leeds to London Kings Cross 1633 (10)
1D23 1703 London Kings Cross to Leeds 1917 (10)
1A50 1945 Leeds to London Kings Cross 2159 (10)

1D20 1533 London Kings Cross to Leeds 1750 (10)
1A46 1815 Leeds to London Kings Cross 2031 (10)

There is one other working from Leeds which appears to be a 10-car.

1A06 0640 Leeds to London Kings Cross 0851 (10)

One option is that this could split for the 1006 and 1206 from Kings Cross to Lincoln but it blocks a platform at Kings Cross for three hours (unless the second unit goes out to Ferme Park or Bounds Green).

The 1006 from Kings Cross appears to work:
1B82 1006 London Kings Cross to Lincoln Central 1204 (5)
1B85 1323 Lincoln Central to London Kings Cross 1523 (5)
1B88 1606 London Kings Cross to Lincoln Central 1808 (5)
5B88 18+13 Lincoln Central to Lincoln Terrace C.H.S. 1817
5D88 18+46 Lincoln Terrace C.H.S. to Doncaster Carr Iep Depot 2022

The 1206 from Kings Cross appears to work:
1B84 1206 London Kings Cross to Lincoln Central 1407 (5)
1B87 1526 Lincoln Central to London Kings Cross 1723 (5)

A third 5-car appears to work:
3B83 09+49 Doncaster Carr Iep Depot to Lincoln Central 1109 (5)
1B83 1118 Lincoln Central to London Kings Cross 1323 (5)
1B86 1406 London Kings Cross to Lincoln Central 1603 (5)
1B89 1714 Lincoln Central to London Kings Cross 1923 (5)

It doesn't seem likely that arrivals at 1723 and 1923 are going to wait for form a northbound 10-car but there does need to be a northbound 10-car to balance. There are a few 'unknown' workings to Leeds in the booking engine which aren't available to book at the moment but are shown as Azumas.

1A07 0630 Bradford Forster Square to London Kings Cross 0859 (unknown)
1D08 0933 London Kings Cross to Leeds 1148 (unknown)
1A29 1215 Leeds to London Kings Cross 1431 (unknown)
1D19 1503 London Kings Cross to Leeds 1716 (unknown)
1A45 1745 Leeds to London Kings Cross 2001 (unknown)

1D18 1433 London Kings Cross to Leeds 1649 (unknown)
1A43 1714 Leeds to London Kings Cross 1932 (unknown)
1D31 2003 London Kings Cross to Leeds 2221 (unknown)

1D26 1803 London Kings Cross to Skipton 2119 (unknown)

It is clearly possible that a few empty workings aren't yet in RTT. If all of these are 10-car (the Skipton possibly splitting at Leeds), it would all appear to balance.

But this is all guesswork of course.

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Looking at realtime trains however it says that the 11:18 train service from Lincoln Central to London Kings Cross will form the 14:33 to Leeds and the 13:31 from Leeds will form the 14:06 to Lincoln.

But otherwise thankyou for your response.

Peregrine 4903 said:

Looking at realtime trains however it says that the 11:18 train service from Lincoln Central to London Kings Cross will form the 14:33 to Leeds and the 13:31 from Leeds will form the 14:06 to Lincoln.

But otherwise thankyou for your response.

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RTT shows what is currently in the open data feed. That open data feed this far out does not necessarily reflect what will happen once all the 'short-term' planning adjustments are made to make the timetable work.

Clearly it is possible that a 10-car train arriving from Leeds at Kings Cross could split 5-car for Lincoln with 5-cars staying at Kings Cross for attachment from the next Lincoln service and then to form a 10-car service to Leeds but the timing of the arrivals and departures don't work.

We know that 801/1s are further advanced in their acceptance process than 800/2s so perhaps initially the Leeds trains are 801/1s and Lincoln is relatively self contained with 800/2s operating on their own. We'll see nearer the time.

Surely passenger numbers expected at Lincoln aren’t the only deciding factor for the length of the diagrammed trains? The flows at other stations between Newark and Kings Cross are already known and will presumably continue, and LNER has been happy to use existing full length trains up until now?

swt_passenger said:

Surely passenger numbers expected at Lincoln aren’t the only deciding factor for the length of the diagrammed trains? The flows at other stations between Newark and Kings Cross are already known and will presumably continue, and LNER has been happy to use existing full length trains up until now?

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I think that is more because they have no choice. I use these services lots. They are rarely ⅓ full before Peterborough. APs are normally half the price on them. I have a feeling some of this traffic will move when the Lincoln’s start.

An example
1006 London - Newark. Not heavily loaded throughout.
1030 London - Edinburgh. Appears to have as many leave at Newark as the 1006. The 1030 is the booked connection for Lincoln. The 153 is normally nearly full leaving Newark.

At the moment the extra trains will be brilliant. But I think 5 cars will be enough for how. Likewise a clockface 2 hourly in 2021 will also help with growth without needing more than 5 cars.

One thing that another poster makes that is valid. How many drive to Newark as the shuttle is viewed as unreliable. (The connection is frequently missed as it isn’t held and often around 10 mins).

At least they have the choice but on the booking I have made it is only a 5 car. Will let you know how much space is left at Lincoln once I use it. I suspect not much. I have only see 6x 15x on the same platform at Lincoln.

swt_passenger said:

Surely passenger numbers expected at Lincoln aren’t the only deciding factor for the length of the diagrammed trains? The flows at other stations between Newark and Kings Cross are already known and will presumably continue, and LNER has been happy to use existing full length trains up until now?

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They show as 5-car services in the booking engine - clearly they could decide to run 10 but only advertise 5 for the purpose of reservations.

JonathanH said:

They show as 5-car services in the booking engine - clearly they could decide to run 10 but only advertise 5 for the purpose of reservations.

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Not sure how the would deal with 10 at Lincoln. They could drop 5 at Newark or lock 5 cars out of use and send the long train down the line towards Barnetby to avoid blocking the level crossing. I can’t see how 2x 5 car would work at Lincoln even with SDO

Failed Unit said:

I think that is more because they have no choice. I use these services lots. They are rarely ⅓ full before Peterborough. APs are normally half the price on them. I have a feeling some of this traffic will move when the Lincoln’s start.


At the moment the extra trains will be brilliant. But I think 5 cars will be enough for how. Likewise a clockface 2 hourly in 2021 will also help with growth without needing more than 5 cars.

One thing that another poster makes that is valid. How many drive to Newark as the shuttle is viewed as unreliable. (The connection is frequently missed as it isn’t held and often around 10 mins).

At least they have the choice but on the booking I have made it is only a 5 car. Will let you know how much space is left at Lincoln once I use it. I suspect not much. I have only see 6x 15x on the same platform at Lincoln.

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I live just outside Lincoln and almost everyone I know simply drives to Newark for London at the moment. Most (especially business people) look down on 153`s as not a serious proposition, not a "real" train. The arrival of regular (ie 2 hourly) "proper" trains will change this in time once old habits are broken down. The prospect of changing to a 153 is a real disincentive to train travel. You know there will be little space, it will noisy, cold (heaters don`t work well) and potentially an unreliable connection when in my case I can be in my Jag to Newark or Grantham in comfort, warmth etc. no contest.
These new services are desperately needed and I do hope are successful I for one will keep the Jag in the garage more and encourage others to do the same

class26 said:

Live just outside Lincoln and almost everyone I know simply drives to Newark for London at the moment. Most (especially business people) look down on 153`s as not a serious proposition, not a "real" train. The arrival of regular (ie 2 hourly) "proper" trains will change this in time once old habits are broken down. The prospect of changing to a 153 is a real disincentive to train travel. You know there will be little space, it will noisy, cold (heaters don`t work well) and potentially an unreliable connection when in my case I can be in my Jag to Newark or Grantham in comfort, warmth etc. no contest.
These new services are desperately needed and I do hope are successful I for one will keep the Jag in the garage more and encourage others to do the same

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I travel to Market Rasen - Physically getting on the 153 is a challenge at time. I have had many 2 hour delay repay claims as a result of the connection so I understand the pain. Most people from there prefer to drive to Newark as well. However not sure if they will drive to Lincoln instead or continue to go to Newark. If they manage to have a reliable connection they may even change at Lincoln onto the service.

Failed Unit said:

I travel to Market Rasen - Physically getting on the 153 is a challenge at time. I have had many 2 hour delay repay claims as a result of the connection so I understand the pain. Most people from there prefer to drive to Newark as well. However not sure if they will drive to Lincoln instead or continue to go to Newark. If they manage to have a reliable connection they may even change at Lincoln onto the service.

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We do know that there will be no more single car trains soon in Lincs. Can`t happen soon enough

class26 said:

We do know that there will be no more single car trains soon in Lincs. Can`t happen soon enough

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Ironically - most services will become hourly so a single coach will probably be enough. May be worth starting a new thread to discuss how the hourly service is likely to grow usage in Lincolnshire. But from a selfish point of view the new service is very nice. For the Grimsby line.

For example going north the 1206 will enable me to change at Lincoln for a connection (filling in a gap of over 4 hours). Saturday's will also see more connections and gaps filled by changing at Lincoln.

Southbound not as exciting as the connections via Newark were more reasonable.

Sunday services come December will be heaven,.