Western Lord
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Piped music is awful, every station should have its own band, or in the case of major stations, orchestra.
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Piped music at stations
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DarloRich
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alxndr
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By that token:
wheelchair users should not expect companies to install ramps for their access
blind or visually impaired people should not expect companies to provide Braille/audio versions of information
It all comes down to accessibility. We should be looking to make places more accessible to all, not harder.
Surely the lack of presence of 'youths' hanging around will make for a better environment for everyone. Although I doubt there was any consultation prior to this.
Nevertheless I agree with previous posts to send feedback if it's something new, they may get multiple pieces of feedback outlining the same thing and choose to withdraw it .
Obviously it can be different for people on the spectrum of any disability but what I will say is it's often the same people (tends to be middle aged to older) who complain about buskers, excessive announcements, noise in general etc that complain about the younger generation tending to always have earphones in or headphones on who can of course drown out all the sounds they want with their own music/podcast/whatever. That's not targeting anyone on here specifically, and I don't like to make things 'generational', its just what I myself have noticed.
snookertam
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There's a difference between 'expect things to be arranged solely for their covenience' and to expect that reasonable adjustments be made for a condition that is not of their choosing. In this case the OP is simply asking why music is being played due to the effect it has on them, not asking for a full station redesign.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Lets try not to be silly. The station is perfectly accessible.
But that is exactly what the OP asked for he. He expects things to be changed to please him because he is autistic. The real world isn't like that.
People have to learn to develop coping mechanisms for real life. I am not trying to be hard or rude btw just honest and I realise will now be called all kinds of names but I have my own views based on experience and they wont change.
Esker-pades
Established Member
It is not essential to play music at a train station. Although I fundamentally dislike loud announcements, I accept them because they provide useful inforation. Playing tedious middle-of-the-road Classic FM junk is not.
Esker-pades
Established Member
But it is. I often have to ask restaurants to turn down music. They comply. I never mention the fact that I have Autistic Spectrum Disorder in said requests.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
It isn't worth me responding as i will simply be accused of being an evil unfeeling so and so. I have a different view but you wont like me expressing so i wont.
Esker-pades
Established Member
Try me (even if in a PM). I'm genuinely interested as to why you think making life a bit less uncomfortable for some people is not as important as playing awful, tinny, non-essential music from a speaker.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
I don't think it is about making life a bit less uncomfortable. I think it is about one group of people expecting the world to be the way they wish it was rather than the way it actually is and when that expectation is unreasonable or impractical getting angry because they aren't getting what they want.
If you cant use a station because of noise how are you going to work? How are you gong to earn money, support yourself, raise a family, even have a decent life? How are you going to interact with everyone around you and build meaningful relationships? How is any of that possible if some classical music causes you a meltdown? What happens when something really big hits ( as it will)? My view is that you have to learn to cope because the world sometimes (often?) isn't going to give a stuff.
As an aside i have been through a lot in my life. I dealt with it on my own most of the time. That has made my sympathy levels low and my manner quiet direct. I might be unrealistic in my view that people should deal with things the way I do but it is the way that works for me. I am not trying to be harsh, just realistic. The world is a harsh and nasty place and you need to be able to find a way to cope. I think some of you here don't see that.
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Esker-pades
Established Member
Note that nobody save for you has used the word "expectation" or any synonyms. The closest I can find is that @mikeg complained. That is not necessarily in expectation of changing anything, but rather to register their disatisfaction at a recent change. I emphasis this word because you object to autistic people expecting things to be changed in order to make this less uncomfortable*. ("He expects things to be changed to please him because he is autistic" - DarloRich, post #36.) The change in this case is from no music to music. IE: there has been a change which they object to. I do not see how your "I like listening to generic small-c classical music" reasons^ for wanting to keep the change trumps an actual disorder. Especially as the change is necessary for literally nobody.
Again, you are also the first person here to use the word "angry". Again, the closest thing I can find to this is the complaint. Complaints are not necessarily angry. I do not see why you have assumed this.
Simple answers:
- Some autistic people cannot work
- Some autistic people cannot support themselves
- Some autistic people cannot raise a family
- Some autistic people cannot build meaningful relationships
It's the additional noise which causes autistic people to become overwhelmed. The addition of the music is another piece of sensory input which I have to keep track of on top of all the others. That reduces my ability to do other stuff, meaning I am closer to imploding.
If it was just as simple as "learning to cope", we'd all be doing it. Some things (mainly the social aspects) can be learned. Others (like the physical stuff) cannot.
I am also aware that life is a brutal and horrible thing that you have to get through and then you die.
As my own aside you've ended multiple comments now with the assumption that people will jump down your throat with accusations. This hasn't happened. I've noted twice above that you have been the first person to suggest things ("expectation", "angry"). Why is this the case?
*I'm aware you object to this, but I will take lived experience of myself and other over your interpretation of the situation, especially given my previous discussions with you about Autistic Spectrum Disorder (ASD).
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I agree it is not essential but, as has already been stated, it has been proven to reduce the incidence of anti-social behaviour at a number of places.
Personally, I would far rather have some "middle-of-the-road Classic FM junk" than a gang of non-travelling chavs playing the latest rap releases on their phones. Others may prefer the latter.
alxndr
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I don't see it as being silly at all. ASD can be considered a disability, as can the other issues I mentioned. The station may not be completely accessible in the same way as a set of steps would render it inaccessible to a wheelchair user, but it has been made less accessible to some.
Autistic people (generally) wish the world was more tolerable for them on a sensory level. Is that such a horrible thing to desire? Is it so awful that they might make others aware of the things they find contribute to sensory overload so that they might understand (and possibly reconsider or change?) If you had a migraine might you not suggest that the lamp is put on rather than the big light? It's really not so different, except for autistic people sensory issues are a daily one.
The world and society is not a stagnant place. Surely it's not that hard to shed the "I'm alright Jack" attitude and consider those around you a little. No one's suggesting we move heaven and earth to accommodate everyone's whim and fancy, just make small changes to make it easier for those who have a genuine reason to find something a problem for them.
Esker-pades
Established Member
If that's really the best/only solution, then I would prefer the former. I'd be surprised if this was the case (but I'm not an expert on the matter).
I'd argue for a system where said music was only played when such undesirables were around, or at the likely times of loitering rather than all day.
Some good points there. Thanks for those.
I appear to have unintentionally caused some controversy here, but why give up the habit of a lifetime?
I do not as @DarloRich suggests intend that everything is arranged solely for me or people like me. But I would like things to be justified in objective terms. If it was a case (and yes the station still is accessible, though a now sometimes rather unpleasant experience, I tend to wear headphones there if I'm feeling on edge now) that the displeasure or pain suffered by me was outweighed by the proven benefits of the music and this was stated as the reason, I might be more not less accepting. However I see little to justify it in these terms, as a regular visitor to Thirsk station I have seen no antisocial behaviour in over a year. Even that was always confined to the few minutes after the last Northbound GC service pulls in on a Saturday, or a raceday before late night trains arrive to whisk away the racegoers. There simply are no chavs not travelling, which isn't surprising given the station is over a mile out of town.
Thus by my calculation the net utility of the music is negative and it is simply an observation that it is making things worse for us autistic travellers, whom I suspect have not even been considered. Consideration and reasonable adjustment is all I ask. I do not ask the world to adapt for me all of the time, I spend the vast majority of my life attempting, sometimes succeeding, often failing to adapt to other's norms.
@FelixtheCat makes some important points. It's not just the music in and as of itself. It's the addition to the sensory load, there's also the question of necessity. I also cannot do some of the things he and DarloRich listed, though I use the station for commuting, I cannot (have actually tried and failed) live independently, or raise a family, given that my ability at meaningful relationships beyond a few friendships and this forum is extremely limited. So I can't simply expect to do these things, trust me, I've tried for the past thirty odd years!
I do not as @DarloRich suggests intend that everything is arranged solely for me or people like me. But I would like things to be justified in objective terms. If it was a case (and yes the station still is accessible, though a now sometimes rather unpleasant experience, I tend to wear headphones there if I'm feeling on edge now) that the displeasure or pain suffered by me was outweighed by the proven benefits of the music and this was stated as the reason, I might be more not less accepting. However I see little to justify it in these terms, as a regular visitor to Thirsk station I have seen no antisocial behaviour in over a year. Even that was always confined to the few minutes after the last Northbound GC service pulls in on a Saturday, or a raceday before late night trains arrive to whisk away the racegoers. There simply are no chavs not travelling, which isn't surprising given the station is over a mile out of town.
Thus by my calculation the net utility of the music is negative and it is simply an observation that it is making things worse for us autistic travellers, whom I suspect have not even been considered. Consideration and reasonable adjustment is all I ask. I do not ask the world to adapt for me all of the time, I spend the vast majority of my life attempting, sometimes succeeding, often failing to adapt to other's norms.
@FelixtheCat makes some important points. It's not just the music in and as of itself. It's the addition to the sensory load, there's also the question of necessity. I also cannot do some of the things he and DarloRich listed, though I use the station for commuting, I cannot (have actually tried and failed) live independently, or raise a family, given that my ability at meaningful relationships beyond a few friendships and this forum is extremely limited. So I can't simply expect to do these things, trust me, I've tried for the past thirty odd years!
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Sorry that my use of language hasn't been up to the standard you expect. I am not very touchy freely or PC. I have personal experience of autistic people expecting unrealistic changes and becoming angry and really quite unpleasant when they don't get their own way. I hesitate to give an example but one was relating to noise in the office and lighting levels through the windows. What the person wanted was simply impractical and the offer made to try and help was rejected, bluntly, because it was not exactly what they asked for. They were unable, even with very careful 1-2-1 discussions, to see the reasoning why the request was impractical and unrealistic.
Perhaps I should not project that onto all people "on the spectrum" but that is my experience. On the other side I have supported a colleague to get some adjustments in place and it has had a massively beneficial impact on their performance and general well being.
returning to the issue, I just want people to be realistic about dealing with change. This is very minor change designed to make the ambience better for the majority of paying passengers. I just want you and others to see the bigger picture and acknowledge that sometimes your views aren't the priority and you wont get your own way. If that happens then what? I think you have to develop a way to cope. I suspect you will disagree.
As an aside should the views of someone writing down train numbers be held in higher regard than paying passengers? Should paying passengers be subjected to possible scroatish behaviour because one person doesn't like music? What if there has been evidence that suicides have increased at this station and the music might prevent them?
This is relatively quiet music that is quite calming. It isn't Megdeath turned up to 11! My view, which you don't agree with, is that you have to find a coping mechanism for relatively minor things if only to allow you to really focus on the big things.
I can think of a couple of reasons: Being in a caring, mature, fulfilling adult relationship with someone you love, wanting to make a full commitment to each other and make an investment in the future is the best one. There is a more crude reason that I subscribe to: that the act of procreation is fun!
I have to disagree with you again. Developing coping strategies are an essential part of dealing with autism. I base that on the experience i have had in this regard. Clearly coping strategies alone are not enough but they are an important tool.
I am direct and will express my view, often in a less than user friendly way, but that is the way I am. I am worse in real life
Many posters here cant deal with that and complain if they are challenged. As you can see I am happy for you to challenge my views but I would rather you did it face to face so to speak. It is good you will. I wont go further than thatPS I hope neither of us die for a while yet!
I must point out you know nothing of me , my family or my experience. Just because I take a different view to you does not mean it is not built on my own lived experience.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
I take the point you make but the station is still accessible in that the trains can still be reached by users.
I suffer from migraines that make it feel like someone is whacking me in the head with a baseball bat every 2 seconds and the light makes it feel like someone is poking my eyes out. Movement is absolute agony. I have had them all my life. I used to curl up in a ball and give in. Now when I get one at work I force myself through and utterly refuse to give in. I might collapse when I get home ( in a room with no light!) but I wont give in where anyone will see me. As you can see I am quite stubborn!
With respect my experience with those on the autistic spectrum is that they absolutely DO want heaven and earth moving! As I say above perhaps I should not project that onto everyone but, one person apart, that has been my experience both professionally and personally.
I am honestly not trying to cause an argument and I am sorry if I caused you any upset. It is not my intention! I suspect you are right that autistic travellers have not been considered and that someone, somewhere simply thinks that the music will make an otherwise quite lonely station a bit more pleasant. I happen to agree with them on that!
DarloRich
Veteran Member
I am not saying you did. I was merely apologising in case I had!
AlbertBeale
Established Member
An enforced musical background can be very unsettling and distracting - and sometimes disabling (in the sense that it stops people from being able to deal with things like buying tickets) - for many people, including some autistic people, but others as well. Many people find it stressful and alienating. I would suggest that not having noise pushed on you in a public place you need to use is a more fundamental right than having whatever unnecessarily added background that you happen to prefer. The same as being able to breathe unpolluted air is a more fundamental right than wanting to have smoke all around you. (And anyone really needing to have music/noise constantly can carry their own and use headphones.)
I'm interested in the legal situation. There used to be a railway byelaw (a subsection of No 22 I believe) which prohibited the playing of music on railway premises "to the annoyance of another person" or words to that effect. I once invoked the equivalent byelaw on the Underground (many years ago). They'd started playing music on a tannoy system on Tottenham Court Road station as an experiment. Arriving back there late one evening (it's one of my nearest stations) I was so annoyed with it that - having checked the byelaws beforehand - I marched into the station office (somewhere near the bottom of what were then the main escalators, I seem to remember), pointed out it annoyed me, and said they were therefore required under the byelaws to stop it. The station manager refused and said it was them playing the music, so that didn't count. I pointed out that the byelaw recognised no such exception, and said, calmly, that I'd stay there until they turned it off. They said they'd call the police; i said that was fine by me and waited - meanwhile having a fairly friendly and civilised chat with the station people. After some time I heard the clatter of boots running down the escalator, and made the correct assumption and popped out of the door to meet them at the bottom. "Ah, officer," I said to the first of them, "I'm so glad you're here - I wish to report a breach of the law."
That left the police having to take a statement from me, as the complainant regarding what was clearly a prima facie offence, and the station staff never got much chance to make whatever allegations of illegality they were wanting to about me...
Eventually, after the slow progress of bureaucracy, the BTP told me they wouldn't prosecute "on public interest grounds" or something like that. I tried to appeal to their police authority; but it turned out, in Kafaesque fashion, that the BTP's police authority was made up of people from BR, LT, etc. And they were hardly going to tell the police to prosecute an organisation they represented - thus making them above the law, as I saw it. So the law was not, on that occasion, enforced (though it was indubitably being broken; the BTP never disputed that). I got a letter about this in a national newspaper; this was back in the days when it was normal to print the writer's address as well as name, and the result was far and away the biggest postbag I'd ever had in response to something I'd had in print - and it was universally supportive. So it seemed (and still does seem) to me that annoyance at piped music is really pretty widespread...
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I'm interested in the legal situation. There used to be a railway byelaw (a subsection of No 22 I believe) which prohibited the playing of music on railway premises "to the annoyance of another person" or words to that effect. I once invoked the equivalent byelaw on the Underground (many years ago). They'd started playing music on a tannoy system on Tottenham Court Road station as an experiment. Arriving back there late one evening (it's one of my nearest stations) I was so annoyed with it that - having checked the byelaws beforehand - I marched into the station office (somewhere near the bottom of what were then the main escalators, I seem to remember), pointed out it annoyed me, and said they were therefore required under the byelaws to stop it. The station manager refused and said it was them playing the music, so that didn't count. I pointed out that the byelaw recognised no such exception, and said, calmly, that I'd stay there until they turned it off. They said they'd call the police; i said that was fine by me and waited - meanwhile having a fairly friendly and civilised chat with the station people. After some time I heard the clatter of boots running down the escalator, and made the correct assumption and popped out of the door to meet them at the bottom. "Ah, officer," I said to the first of them, "I'm so glad you're here - I wish to report a breach of the law."
That left the police having to take a statement from me, as the complainant regarding what was clearly a prima facie offence, and the station staff never got much chance to make whatever allegations of illegality they were wanting to about me...
Eventually, after the slow progress of bureaucracy, the BTP told me they wouldn't prosecute "on public interest grounds" or something like that. I tried to appeal to their police authority; but it turned out, in Kafaesque fashion, that the BTP's police authority was made up of people from BR, LT, etc. And they were hardly going to tell the police to prosecute an organisation they represented - thus making them above the law, as I saw it. So the law was not, on that occasion, enforced (though it was indubitably being broken; the BTP never disputed that). I got a letter about this in a national newspaper; this was back in the days when it was normal to print the writer's address as well as name, and the result was far and away the biggest postbag I'd ever had in response to something I'd had in print - and it was universally supportive. So it seemed (and still does seem) to me that annoyance at piped music is really pretty widespread...
.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
WOW. What a massive over reaction to something so small and petty and a complete waste of resources. Typical of this board mind - It also goes a long way to prove my point above.
BTW it absolutely WASNT in the public interest to prosecute and to my mind you should have been done for wasting police time and marked down as vexatious!
Esker-pades
Established Member
My emphasis.
I think that may be the problem here. There is huge diversity amongst people who have autism. It is a really bad idea to project such things into everyone in a group.
I also have 2 sides to this thing. A minority, usually parents, seem to thing that their child's neurodiversity allows them to behave in whichever way they please. I will point such behaviour out if I see it. I don't in this case.
It may be minor to you, but it really isn't to us. Aural over-stimulation is something that causes significant issues to many autistic people.
Most other passengers either won't notice or won't care. There is a reason that people have personal music players: they know what music they like, and would much rather listen to that then a very poor interpretation of some generic Mozart piano concerto. Before you say, "oh, just put on some headphones and listen to music you like", that adds to the already heightened sensory stress. Trying to drown out unwanted noise doesn't work.
Nobody save for you has indicated that we consider our views to be above everyone else's, or that we expect to get out own way. In this case, if one group considers this to be a minor ambiance change, but the other will have their ease of use reduced due to a disability, the needs of the latter override the non-essential desires of the former. It hasn't been established that this former group are actually in favour of the change.
The first one is silly, so I'll ignore it.
I answered the second one upthread.
As for the third one: The multiple 'what ifs' and 'possiblys' suggest a lack of evidence or certainty. I'll give roughly the same answer as I did before: If it genuinely prevents people from attempting suicide, then I'd be convinced of its need. It wouldn't invalidate the significant issues that it causes autistic people, but preventing people dying is more important.
You seem to have missed my previous point. Yes, volume is one issue. Another one is the sheer quantity of different noises and inputs. Too much of either makes life difficult.
I'm not happy about it, but it is the situation that some people find themselves in.
Reasonable adjustments are useful. I have made use of them when required.
It wasn't an entirely serious comment. As an asexual person who dislikes children, I'll happily leave procreation and raising a family to other people.
Please don't explain how I should deal with my own disorder. I have multiple coping strategies for multiple things. But, they are just that. They mean I don't implode from stress etc., not make the situation anything like pleasent. They are preferable to having no such strategies, but removing instances where I have to use them is always welcome.
Fair enough. I would also rather we remained alive.I am direct and will express my view, often in a less than user friendly way, but that is the way I am. I am worse in real life
PS I hope neither of us die for a while yet!
True, and I apologise. The reason I made my comment was because I live with autism, and you appear not to (maybe you do and don't want to say; that's fine). I make this assumption from a few discussions I have had with you in previous threads about the disorder.
I think that the analogy with smoking is a good one. Piped music is like the station burning incense because some people like it.
Even leaving aside the health issue of smoking : just like piped music, smoke irritates me and others even if it did not affect health.
Even leaving aside the health issue of smoking : just like piped music, smoke irritates me and others even if it did not affect health.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Neither was mine - although I do enjoy the procedure quite a bit.
I don't know if I do or not as I have never been tested or diagnosed because, frankly, such things did not exist when I was a kid and I am too old to care now! Back then such people were just written off as a naughty child acting up or looking for attention and if I am honest ( and you wont like this) that may well colour my views on autism and autistic people today. I don't think that is the case actually but that view may well be the route of a (Un?)concious bias. I am honest enough to admit my own failings I suppose!
What I DO know is that I have had problems of my own to deal with ( and that I beat them with little or no help so expect, perhaps unfairly, others to do the same) & how hard it is to get support for autistic children from the education and health authorities and I really don't want to go further than that!
I am absolutely not doing that and that was not my intention. I am not that arrogant! My point was that coping strategies are required from time to time in order to overcome the challenges everyday life pose and are part of a tool kit of responses.
I think the first one is valid actually and gets to an issue with this board but that isnt worth pursuing here.
I have no evidence at all regarding this decision. I simply posit a reason why something could have happened based on information i have seen 17th hand from other locations. I suspect, as the OP suggested, that no one thought about how this would impact on autistic people because it is, to the vast majority of people, a very minor change with an impact would seem infinitesimally small. That will be ignorance rather than malice and I suspect that the TPE will stop playing the music because the bad publicity in not doing so isnt worth the trouble.
My point remains: TPE might not agree to stop this music. What then?
Esker-pades
Established Member
That's entirely fair.Neither was mine - although I do enjoy the procedure quite a bit.
I don't know if I do or not as I have never been tested or diagnosed because, frankly, such things did not exist when I was a kid and I am too old to care now! Back then such people were just written off as a naughty child acting up or looking for attention and if I am honest ( and you wont like this) that may well colour my views on autism and autistic people today. I don't think that is the case actually but that view may well be the route of a (Un?)concious bias. I am honest enough to admit my own failings I suppose!
What I DO know is that I have had problems of my own to deal with ( and that I beat them with little or no help so expect, perhaps unfairly, others to do the same) & how hard it is to get support for autistic children from the education and health authorities and I really don't want to go further than that!
"tool kit of responses" - Brilliant.
Coping strategies are required, but this situation seems like one of the ones where it is easier to just go back to how it was before. It isn't essential to people's lives, but it does create problems for some neurodiverse people.
That's fair enough. As I say, if there is an impact, and there aren't other, less intrusive ways of doing it, then I would change my opinion.
Ignorance rather than malice is normal in this sort of situation. I'm very happy to explain why doing X is detrimental to me. If it's something that is trivial to a neurotypical person, then the standard response is "I didn't realise, I'll change it back". I am absolutely fine with that. It's the "well, it doesn't make much of a difference to me, so you'll just have to suck it up" response that I'm not so happy with.
I don't know. As I said right at the start, people usually turn down music in restaurants if I ask (without me needing to mention my condition). I'd be surprised if TPE didn't reverse the decision.
The did at Liverpool Street too when I first started commuting in 1970.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
this is what happens when i try to be user friendly! I was looking for a non offensive term to describe how that would be one small part of a bigger thing.
When VTEC managed York station, they started playing music from two speakers on top of the information pod. It seemed to me to be a strange place to put speakers where people are invariably seeking information and would not want music making it difficult to hear staff.
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