London Blackfriars

MML · 22 Sep 2019

I'm surprised the western most part of Blackfriars rail bridge was not strengthened and re-built to provide additional terminating platform(s). There used to be 4 terminating platforms on the eastern side. Once the through Thameslink platforms were rebuilt and the terminating platforms switched to the western side, the number of terminating platforms reduced to 2.

The 2 terminating platforms seem sufficient at the moment given that only 8-car units serve the platforms and they have a 30 minute interval service at present. But with rail traffic growing, one wonders whether a 3rd or 4th terminating platform would be welcomed in future given there is relatively little potential for growth at either Charing Cross or Cannon Street.

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bionic · 22 Sep 2019

The approaches to Blackfriars are full so wouldn't be much point building extra bays. The track layout also means the only trains that can get into the bays are those from Elephant & Castle. Trains from London Bridge that need to terminate at Blackfriars have to do it in the through platforms.

The rebuilding of Blackfriars was extremely short sighted and has led to a very restrictive arrangement and a huge waste of potential. It doesn't help that they still insist on putting trains from Herne Hill through the core while terminating ones from Denmark Hill in the bays, which causes a lot of needless conflict at junctions.

davetheguard · 22 Sep 2019

bionic said:
The approaches to Blackfriars are full so wouldn't be much point building extra bays. The track layout also means the only trains that can get into the bays are those from Elephant & Castle. Trains from London Bridge that need to terminate at Blackfriars have to do it in the through platforms.

The rebuilding of Blackfriars was extremely short sighted and has led to a very restrictive arrangement and a huge waste of potential. It doesn't help that they still insist on putting trains from Herne Hill through the core while terminating ones from Denmark Hill in the bays, which causes a lot of needless conflict at junctions.

Quote: "It doesn't help that they"...... unquote. "They" of course being the DfT, not the TOC.

30907 · 22 Sep 2019

There were only ever 3 bays in the old station, and that was cut to 2 to allow 10 or 12 cars to berth there.
An extra platform might be technically possible, but you'd struggle to fit the extra trains over the throat and down the Chatham route. Two bays should be able to manage 10-12tph anyway, more than now

swt_passenger · 22 Sep 2019

MML said:
I'm surprised the western most part of Blackfriars rail bridge was not strengthened and re-built to provide additional terminating platform(s). There used to be 4 terminating platforms on the eastern side. Once the through Thameslink platforms were rebuilt and the terminating platforms switched to the western side, the number of terminating platforms reduced to 2.

The 2 terminating platforms seem sufficient at the moment given that only 8-car units serve the platforms and they have a 30 minute interval service at present. But with rail traffic growing, one wonders whether a 3rd or 4th terminating platform would be welcomed in future given there is relatively little potential for growth at either Charing Cross or Cannon Street.

There were only three relatively short terminating platforms before re-building.
The new bays are 12 car capable if needed.
The switch of sides was designed for terminating Wimbledon/Sutton services that would have been transferred back to Southern in the original plans.
Blame DfT for moving the goalposts when it was past the point of no return.

rogercov · 22 Sep 2019

As you are probably aware, after the bridge and tracks on the western side were demolished in the 1960s, a buillding appeared on the South bank in the space previously occupied by these tracks (and the old goods station).
This would have made it difficult to re-use the old bridge piers due to the alignment of the remaining tracks. However, I see that this building has now gone. It was demolished within the last 2 hears.
It makes me wonder whether they were aware of the pending demolition of this building when they redesigned Blackfriars. It definitely looks like they have missed an opportunity.

bionic · 22 Sep 2019

davetheguard said:
Quote: "It doesn't help that they"...... unquote. "They" of course being the DfT, not the TOC.

I don't think it matters who "they" are, it could be the DFT, GTR or David Icke... the bottom line is its just plain daft.

Ianno87 · 22 Sep 2019

bionic said:
I don't think it matters who "they" are, it could be the DFT, GTR or David Icke... the bottom line is its just plain daft.

Tell me, what trains are unable to run because of the track layout at Blackfriars?

Horizon22 · 22 Sep 2019

davetheguard said:
Quote: "It doesn't help that they"...... unquote. "They" of course being the DfT, not the TOC.

There was also quite a strong passenger campaign from people in the Beckenham / Orpington area for the peak SE terminators to continue into Blackfriars. It's also presumably useful to keep up some crew knowledge for the routes for diversionary purposes and for when Maidstone TL eventually happens...

But yes, it's a shame there's only the two terminating platforms. If something goes wrong in the core, or north of STP, Thameslink service is stuffed (and its happened a lot recently with wires down / damaged)

I was under the presumption that some day the Sevenoaks services would eventually go through to a northern terminus?

swt_passenger · 22 Sep 2019

Horizon22 said:
I was under the presumption that some day the Sevenoaks services would eventually go through to a northern terminus?

Welwyn GC in Mon-Fri peaks, Blackfriars all other times. As per GTR 2018 consultation, no longer online. No start date as yet.

Horizon22 · 22 Sep 2019

swt_passenger said:
Welwyn GC in Mon-Fri peaks, Blackfriars all other times. As per GTR 2018 consultation, no longer online. No start date as yet.

"No start date as yet" is becoming quite the norm for the remainder of the planned GTR services...

swt_passenger · 22 Sep 2019

Horizon22 said:
"No start date as yet" is becoming quite the norm for the remainder of the planned GTR services...

True. But possibly done to death in more general Thameslink threads, I suspect drifting into timetabling matters again wouldn’t be that helpful...

bionic · 22 Sep 2019

Ianno87 said:
Tell me, what trains are unable to run because of the track layout at Blackfriars?

I'm talking specifically about Sutton trains running through the core while Sevenoaks trains go into the bays. Its just needless conflict. Stick the Suttons in the bays and put the Sevenoakses into the core and you avoid it all.

Joe Paxton · 22 Sep 2019

bionic said:
I'm talking specifically about Sutton trains running through the core while Sevenoaks trains go into the bays. Its just needless conflict. Stick the Suttons in the bays and put the Sevenoakses into the core and you avoid it all.

The conflict then comes from the Sutton loop passengers whose trains no longer go any further north than Blackfriars. My understanding is the DfT basically 'gave in' to these complaints, I think political pressure was a factor.

Horizon22 · 22 Sep 2019

Joe Paxton said:
The conflict then comes from the Sutton loop passengers whose trains no longer go any further north than Blackfriars. My understanding is the DfT basically 'gave in' to these complaints, I think political pressure was a factor.

Maybe before the 2018 timetable but now I think those points are moot with such an intense Core service in the peak.

flitwickbeds · 22 Sep 2019

Joe Paxton said:
The conflict then comes from the Sutton loop passengers whose trains no longer go any further north than Blackfriars. My understanding is the DfT basically 'gave in' to these complaints, I think political pressure was a factor.

Also St Albans/Luton southbound trains may not necessarily have anywhere else to go after Blackfriars due to lack of paths to anywhere else.

Joe Paxton · 22 Sep 2019

Horizon22 said:
Maybe before the 2018 timetable but now I think those points are moot with such an intense Core service in the peak.

Fair point.

swt_passenger · 22 Sep 2019

flitwickbeds said:
Also St Albans/Luton southbound trains may not necessarily have anywhere else to go after Blackfriars due to lack of paths to anywhere else.

Before the Wimbledon loop “came back into play” the service pattern was basically going to be as shown in the London and SE RUS of 2011. The then 6 tph via Elephant and Castle all continued onto the SE routes, and at that time 6tph of St Albans/Luton services were linked to Southeastern destinations via Catford. Keeping the 4tph Wimbledon/Sutton service led to significant knock-on changes in both Sussex and Kent route areas.

Surreytraveller · 22 Sep 2019

Ianno87 said:
Tell me, what trains are unable to run because of the track layout at Blackfriars?

Trains from London Bridge are unable to access the bays

JonathanH · 22 Sep 2019

Surreytraveller said:
Trains from London Bridge are unable to access the bays

Why would you want them to be able to access the bays - the process for service perturbation is to reverse at Blackfriars, London Bridge, East Croydon or further south in the through platforms. When services are running to plan, they run through and there is no need for access to the bay platforms.

During engineering works there have occasionally been scheduled Gatwick to Blackfriars services diverted through Tulse Hill / Herne Hill to access the bay platform.

Surreytraveller · 22 Sep 2019

JonathanH said:
Why would you want them to be able to access the bays - the process for service perturbation is to reverse at Blackfriars, London Bridge, East Croydon or further south in the through platforms. When services are running to plan, they run through and there is no need for access to the bay platforms.

During engineering works there have occasionally been scheduled Gatwick to Blackfriars services diverted through Tulse Hill / Herne Hill to access the bay platform.

It reduces flexibility. It is more difficult to terminate a train at short notice if you can't dump it in a bay. You can't leave a train in a through platform

bangor-toad · 22 Sep 2019

Hi,
The western bridge supports were from the first bridge and were deemed "weak" back in, I think, the 19080's.

They apparently would not be strong enough to support the weight of a train and are essentially abandoned. The new cross-river northbounf platform was bulit onto one of each of the pillars but just for the weight of the platform required encasing in concrete and stone. To have upgraded them to support the weight of perhaps two fully laden 12 car trains would have been incredibly challenging and expensive.

It may look like a wasted opportunity but I don't think there were any other options.
Cheers,
Jason

Peter Mugridge · 22 Sep 2019

Is there any reason why they didn't stick the two bays in the middle and run the through platforms outside them which would have avoided any conflicting moves in either direction? I am thinking here that if the layout was a single large platform area with the through tracks on the outsides and the bays in the middle and a single barrier line at the City end with the access to the Underground instead of two of these with the tracks in between? At the country end there would still be two separate accesses to the platforms as at present.

Was there simply not enough space available to align the through tracks in this way?

JonathanH · 22 Sep 2019

Surreytraveller said:
It reduces flexibility. It is more difficult to terminate a train at short notice if you can't dump it in a bay. You can't leave a train in a through platform

You either dump it at Kentish Town or run it back to the siding at Herne Hill - nothing special about the bay at Blackfriars for dumping trains - while I concede that platform 4 at Blackfriars is generally only used for peak time Southeastern services it isn't really available for dumping trains even if you could get there.

Surreytraveller · 23 Sep 2019

JonathanH said:
You either dump it at Kentish Town or run it back to the siding at Herne Hill - nothing special about the bay at Blackfriars for dumping trains - while I concede that platform 4 at Blackfriars is generally only used for peak time Southeastern services it isn't really available for dumping trains even if you could get there.

Can't dump anything at Herne Hill or Kentish Town if there's no driver to take it there. There is a bay available at Blackfriars to dump stuff, and there is another bay available by sending the stuff off the Catford Loop to Smithfield and back

edwin_m · 23 Sep 2019

Peter Mugridge said:
Is there any reason why they didn't stick the two bays in the middle and run the through platforms outside them which would have avoided any conflicting moves in either direction? I am thinking here that if the layout was a single large platform area with the through tracks on the outsides and the bays in the middle and a single barrier line at the City end with the access to the Underground instead of two of these with the tracks in between? At the country end there would still be two separate accesses to the platforms as at present.

Was there simply not enough space available to align the through tracks in this way?

I think this was because the original idea was to terminate the Sutton Loop services at Blackfriars so the station was re-arranged to keep them separate from the trains via London Bridge which would go through towards Farringdon. The late decision to keep these services running through means that a layout with centre bays might have been better.

Surreytraveller said:
Can't dump anything at Herne Hill or Kentish Town if there's no driver to take it there. There is a bay available at Blackfriars to dump stuff, and there is another bay available by sending the stuff off the Catford Loop to Smithfield and back

They can presumably be dumped inbound if the problem occurs before they get to those places. If there is no route through there is no need to keep the line clear, and any trains further in could get parked just anywhere until they could be reversed out or the blockage cleared.

jopsuk · 23 Sep 2019

Peter Mugridge said:
Is there any reason why they didn't stick the two bays in the middle and run the through platforms outside them which would have avoided any conflicting moves in either direction? I am thinking here that if the layout was a single large platform area with the through tracks on the outsides and the bays in the middle and a single barrier line at the City end with the access to the Underground instead of two of these with the tracks in between? At the country end there would still be two separate accesses to the platforms as at present.

Was there simply not enough space available to align the through tracks in this way?

As said, the layout was designed at a time when the idea was that the Sutton Loop would be a self contained intensive service running out of the bays, so at the south end of the station the only crossing would have been arrivals and departures on that side. All Thameslink would have gone to London Bridge. But the commuters of Sutton kicked up a stink at losing their direct trains to City, Farringdon and Kings Cross St Pancras. They did this far too late to change the design.

However, your layout would still have conflicts, with Thameslink through services diverging at the south end conflicts are always going to happen without grade separation.

JonathanH · 23 Sep 2019

Surreytraveller said:
Can't dump anything at Herne Hill or Kentish Town if there's no driver to take it there. There is a bay available at Blackfriars to dump stuff, and there is another bay available by sending the stuff off the Catford Loop to Smithfield and back

edwin_m said:
They can presumably be dumped inbound if the problem occurs before they get to those places. If there is no route through there is no need to keep the line clear, and any trains further in could get parked just anywhere until they could be reversed out or the blockage cleared.

Isn't that why there isn't a traincrew depot at Blackfriars now and changeovers aren't scheduled there?

mr_jrt · 23 Sep 2019

rogercov said:
As you are probably aware, after the bridge and tracks on the western side were demolished in the 1960s, a buillding appeared on the South bank in the space previously occupied by these tracks (and the old goods station).
This would have made it difficult to re-use the old bridge piers due to the alignment of the remaining tracks. However, I see that this building has now gone. It was demolished within the last 2 hears.
It makes me wonder whether they were aware of the pending demolition of this building when they redesigned Blackfriars. It definitely looks like they have missed an opportunity.

This was discussed elsewhere (i.e. here) I think, but the site is already being redeveloped I think....and basically the small amount of space required to have tracks able to reach those piers was rejected.

edwin_m · 23 Sep 2019

JonathanH said:
Isn't that why there isn't a traincrew depot at Blackfriars now and changeovers aren't scheduled there?

I guess that's because with the required dwell times in the core, the last thing you want is the time needed for crew changes and the risk that the relief driver isn't there for some reason.

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