LNER - unable to board? £80 please

mugam4 · 1 Oct 2019

Really disgraceful conduct by LNER here: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/oct/01/lner-rail-ticket-valid-change-trains

I was unable to get on the 14.00 train as it was full. Seeing me struggling to board, a member of LNER staff told me to get on the next train at 15.00. She assured me my ticket would be valid, so I took her advice and waited for the next train. I checked with customer services and was satisfied my ticket would be valid. To my surprise, therefore, the ticket manager on board told me it definitely wasn't. She got a colleague to join in the conversation and demanded I pay an additional £88.30 to stay on this train.

[LNER] says it is taking the allegations about the crew’s conduct very seriously but points out that “the on-board train manager did use discretion and offered the option to upgrade EB’s ticket to an Anytime Single, rather than issuing a significantly more expensive new ticket”. As a goodwill gesture, it is offering a voucher to use on your next journey.

Am I right in thinking that a full refund for the erroneously applied £88 should have been in order? If staff endorse a ticket to be valid, verbally or otherwise, that's black and white. Thoughts?

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Bletchleyite · 1 Oct 2019

mugam4 said:
Am I right in thinking that a full refund for the erroneously applied £88 should have been in order? If staff endorse a ticket to be valid, verbally or otherwise, that's black and white. Thoughts?

If a passenger is unable to physically board a train due to it being overcrowded that is basically seen as a cancellation, so yes, I would agree, assuming that actually was the case. This is extremely rare in my experience (there's usually room for one more if you belt on the window and shout at people to move along) but I have had it happen to me once or twice.

That doesn't apply, unless it was as a reasonable adjustment for a disability, if it's just unpleasantly busy - it would have to be physically impossible to board.

If it was just busy and he/she was having trouble getting to the reserved seat (LNER don't do counted places) then the member of staff should have kept their gob shut, and it becomes one person's word against another. There really is a problem with staff saying things are OK that are not verbally. It really should be a disciplinary offence to even hint at such things without giving it in writing, and if they are not authorised to do it should simply not do so and redirect the person to someone who can or can give it in writing that they cannot.

Llanigraham · 1 Oct 2019

How can we give a true and complete answer when we do not have all the facts?

yorkie · 1 Oct 2019

mugam4 said:
Am I right in thinking that a full refund for the erroneously applied £88 should have been in order? If staff endorse a ticket to be valid, verbally or otherwise, that's black and white. Thoughts?

Absolutely. If the facts are as described by the passenger then the whole amount must be refunded; anything else would be a breach of contract and consumer laws.

( We've been through this before; see: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/passenger-rights-when-following-staff-instructions.191854/ )

theironroad · 1 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
If a passenger is unable to physically board a train due to it being overcrowded that is basically seen as a cancellation, so yes, I would agree, assuming that actually was the case. This is extremely rare in my experience (there's usually room for one more if you belt on the window and shout at people to move along) but I have had it happen to me once or twice.

That doesn't apply, unless it was as a reasonable adjustment for a disability, if it's just unpleasantly busy - it would have to be physically impossible to board.

If it was just busy and he/she was having trouble getting to the reserved seat (LNER don't do counted places) then the member of staff should have kept their gob shut, and it becomes one person's word against another. There really is a problem with staff saying things are OK that are not verbally. It really should be a disciplinary offence to even hint at such things without giving it in writing, and if they are not authorised to do it should simply not do so and redirect the person to someone who can or can give it in writing that they cannot.

I'd agree that any endorsement should be in writing and would have thought the customer service staff referenced in the op would have the ability to do that.

Unfortunately, on board staff are used to hearing every excuse under the sun and while some are genuine, plenty are blatant lies that are fabricated. It's also fair to say that some onboard staff have a close to near obsession with enforcing every ticket rule, whereas others are more easy going and want a peaceful shift.

Darandio · 1 Oct 2019

The OP is missing another part of the response from LNER.

“We appreciate the ticketing system can be confusing. To ensure customers are travelling on the appropriate train a series of announcements are made on board before departure. This allows those with invalid tickets the chance to depart the train.”

That shows no acknowledgement of the prior train that the passenger was unable to board, no mention of their member of staff verbally endorsing travel and suggests that the passenger is at fault for not leaving the train when announcements would have told them to do so.

It basically bears little relation to the complaint and suggests they haven't even read it in full. Surprised?

Starmill · 1 Oct 2019

LNER claim above that their staff did use their "discretion" in charging this customer. If it's the view of LNER that their staff have discretion to act unlawfully then I would suggest that the ORR need to conduct an investigation. If that is true then it may be that they are not fit and proper to have their licence to run trains or to be in business.

Starmill · 1 Oct 2019

I would also add that it's standard practice in the Consumer Champions section of The Guardian to make it clear where the company has offered a consumer a refund as part of giving them their right to reply. LNER's 'right to reply' is included in the article, and mention of a free ticket for the customer is made, but not that of a refund. Combined with the doubling-down by LNER on the importance of holding the correct ticket, I would suggest that this means it is highly unlikely that the customer has as yet been offered a refund. If that's the case, that's reprehensible conduct.

paul1609 · 1 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
If a passenger is unable to physically board a train due to it being overcrowded that is basically seen as a cancellation, so yes, I would agree, assuming that actually was the case. This is extremely rare in my experience (there's usually room for one more if you belt on the window and shout at people to move along) but I have had it happen to me once or twice.

That doesn't apply, unless it was as a reasonable adjustment for a disability, if it's just unpleasantly busy - it would have to be physically impossible to board.

If it was just busy and he/she was having trouble getting to the reserved seat (LNER don't do counted places) then the member of staff should have kept their gob shut, and it becomes one person's word against another. There really is a problem with staff saying things are OK that are not verbally. It really should be a disciplinary offence to even hint at such things without giving it in writing, and if they are not authorised to do it should simply not do so and redirect the person to someone who can or can give it in writing that they cannot.

Is that where the she has an advance ticket or seat reservation or if she just has say an Off Peak ticket and turns up on Spec? The issue here seems to be that the next train required an Anytime ticket.

Bletchleyite · 1 Oct 2019

paul1609 said:
Is that where the she has an advance ticket or seat reservation or if she just has say an Off Peak ticket and turns up on Spec? The issue here seems to be that the next train required an Anytime ticket.

I don't see any reason why it should not apply to both. After all, it invokes Delay Repay as if it was a cancellation, so why should it not be otherwise treated as one?

takno · 1 Oct 2019

Sounds like somebody who turned up with over the luggage allowance, missed their booked train and made up a conversation with train staff to me. There are a lot of chancers writing into that column wanting somebody else to pay for their mistakes.

I'm not saying it couldn't have happened as stated, but presumably staff would have to report turning customers away from a full train to control. possibly more importantly for the credibility of the story, the next train is at 14.30, not 15.00.

alistairlees · 1 Oct 2019

If they were going to Berwick upon Tweed the next train would be at 15.00.

sheff1 · 1 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
If a passenger is unable to physically board a train due to it being overcrowded that is basically seen as a cancellation, so yes, I would agree, assuming that actually was the case. This is extremely rare in my experience (there's usually room for one more if you belt on the window and shout at people to move along) but I have had it happen to me once or twice.

That doesn't apply, unless it was as a reasonable adjustment for a disability, if it's just unpleasantly busy - it would have to be physically impossible to board.

I disagree. At Reading on Good Friday a couple of years ago, announcements were telling people not to board the next train to the West Country due to severe overcrowding. When the train arrived, the platform staff repeated the same instruction vociferously. It would have been physically possible for me to force my way on board but I chose to follow the staff instructions and GWR subseuqently gave me a full refund without quibble.

jon0844 · 1 Oct 2019

takno said:
Sounds like somebody who turned up with over the luggage allowance, missed their booked train and made up a conversation with train staff to me. There are a lot of chancers writing into that column wanting somebody else to pay for their mistakes.

I'm not saying it couldn't have happened as stated, but presumably staff would have to report turning customers away from a full train to control. possibly more importantly for the credibility of the story, the next train is at 14.30, not 15.00.

I would expect staff to report a full and standing service to control, so other stations (and those checking apps) can be warned in advance.

Tetchytyke · 1 Oct 2019

Same management as under Stagecoach. Same failures, different name.

Surprised? Not massively.

DaleCooper · 1 Oct 2019

alistairlees said:
If they were going to Berwick upon Tweed the next train would be at 15.00.

From the Grauniad article:

On a journey from London King’s Cross to Edinburgh Waverley with LNER, I had a ticket for the 14.00 train. I am a student and was moving back to Scotland from London for the new college year, carrying three large suitcases.

sefton · 1 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
(there's usually room for one more if you belt on the window and shout at people to move along)

Trouble is when you are doing this and waiting for people to move around to let you on, the driver can be an idiot and try and close the doors whilst they can see people still trying to get on.

MotCO · 1 Oct 2019

Could they apply for a delay repay on the original ticket, if they successfuly argued that they could not board the train? If the original ticket was also £88.30, job's a good'un.

robbeech · 1 Oct 2019

MotCO said:
Could they apply for a delay repay on the original ticket, if they successfuly argued that they could not board the train? If the original ticket was also £88.30, job's a good'un.

Absolutely. A refund of any additional fares paid, AND delay repay which might have been 100% if this was an advance single. I'd be writing to the MD about it, as i've no doubt he would overturn this decision and make sure they're refunded and receive the necessary compensation quite quickly.

Bletchleyite · 1 Oct 2019

sefton said:
Trouble is when you are doing this and waiting for people to move around to let you on, the driver can be an idiot and try and close the doors whilst they can see people still trying to get on.

Last time I checked LNER wasn't DOO, and an InterCity guard would be unlikely to do that.

LNER - unable to board? £80 please

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