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Will TfW meet the 1/1/2020 PRM deadline?

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Cardiff123

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TfW Pacer replacement

It's 1st October next Tuesday. TfW have 3 calendar months to eradicate 30 x Pacers. They are still insisting publicly they will do that by January. Yet they only have two 769s on depot in Canton, neither of which have yet turned a wheel under their own power.
TfW have admitted that they are asking for derogations for the Mk 3 sets, and the 37 + Mk 2 sets for Rhymney. But not for Pacers.
170 driver training doesn't appear to have started yet. No PRM modified class 153s are in service or back in Wales yet.

So, genuine question, how do TfW eradicate 30 Pacers by January and still run a viable service on the Valley lines, which will be most heavily affected by Pacer withdrawal?
 
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Cardiff4

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Can't see how it will be possible to eliminate the Pacers entirely by the end of the year. Will be embarrassing for TfW but surely they will have to apply for a derogation.
 

Cardiff123

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I think the answer to the title of this thread, is that in general, TfW's fleet replacement in 2022-24 will not be a disaster, but TfW's plan to meet the PRM deadline on 1/1/2020 is now very difficult, if not impossible, to meet.
 

S-Bahn

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TfW Pacer replacement

So, genuine question, how do TfW eradicate 30 Pacers by January and still run a viable service on the Valley lines, which will be most heavily affected by Pacer withdrawal?

Clearly the stock doesn't exist to replace the Pacers by January, unless another TOC is able to operate with something else in the interim (e.g. HST Short-sets) and loan their Sprinters/Turbos etc to TFW (which narrows it down to Northern or GWR).
 

sd0733

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Clearly the stock doesn't exist to replace the Pacers by January, unless another TOC is able to operate with something else in the interim (e.g. HST Short-sets) and loan their Sprinters/Turbos etc to TFW (which narrows it down to Northern or GWR).
Neither of those are going to lend anyone anything. They are in the same position themselves. GWR have the 143s and slam door HSTs non compliant while Northern have a far larger pacer fleet than TfW plus lots of other non compliant units.
 

Cardiff123

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Clearly the stock doesn't exist to replace the Pacers by January
So why are TfW still insisting all Pacers in Wales will be gone by January? Either they are lying, know something we don't, or are being prevented from telling the truth by Welsh Govt.
 

S-Bahn

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So why are TfW still insisting all Pacers in Wales will be gone by January? Either they are lying, know something we don't, or are being prevented from telling the truth by Welsh Govt.

Case of over-promising by TFW. It begs the question of how many of their other commitments they can deliver on.

Wonder why this wasn't addressed during Aviva's stewardship of the franchise. The powers that be could have replaced all the Pacers in the UK much sooner.
 

PHILIPE

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Case of over-promising by TFW. It begs the question of how many of their other commitments they can deliver on.

Wonder why this wasn't addressed during Aviva's stewardship of the franchise. The powers that be could have replaced all the Pacers in the UK much sooner.


Arriva did what their franchise commitment was and little else. As they were going they didn't seem interested in PRM Mods and left it all to TFW to do in reduced time.
 

Cardiff123

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Arriva did what their franchise commitment was and little else. As they were going they didn't seem interested in PRM Mods and left it all to TFW to do in reduced time.
To add to that, Welsh Govt and/or DfT between them could have funded PRM mods between them, but both argued over who was ultimately responsible and so nothing got done.
 

Cardiff4

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Both TfW and WAG will not want to be blamed for this fiasco of false promises. Expect there will be a last minute announcement by a carefully selected spokesman (scapegoat).
 

anthony263

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I would rather they bite the bullet and say we are going to keep the Pacers etc till the end of 2020. Hopefully by then some could be withdrawn through the year as the 150s are refurbished and the 769s finally start carrying passengers
 

Bob Price

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Wonder why this wasn't addressed during Aviva's stewardship of the franchise. The powers that be could have replaced all the Pacers in the UK much sooner.
They were the ones who ordered the 769's so the 150's could be PPM mods. The 769 project has been a disaster.
 

Rhydgaled

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TfW Pacer replacement

It's 1st October next Tuesday. TfW have 3 calendar months to eradicate 30 x Pacers. They are still insisting publicly they will do that by January. Yet they only have two 769s on depot in Canton, neither of which have yet turned a wheel under their own power.
TfW have admitted that they are asking for derogations for the Mk 3 sets, and the 37 + Mk 2 sets for Rhymney. But not for Pacers.
170 driver training doesn't appear to have started yet. No PRM modified class 153s are in service or back in Wales yet.

So, genuine question, how do TfW eradicate 30 Pacers by January and still run a viable service on the Valley lines, which will be most heavily affected by Pacer withdrawal?
Meeting the PRM deadline does now look impossible; even with derogations for the LHCS they still need to finish PRMing the 158s and 150s and get the 153s modified too. Plus will the modified 153s have sufficient seating capacity to run alone anywhere? If they don't the five ex-GWR units will meerly allow previous single 153 diagrams to be strengthened to 2-car and thus would be no help in displacing Pacers. The 230s are late but apparently the start of fault-free running isn't far off, can they make it here by December? That's three or four 150s for internal cascade to the valleys if the 230s do make it into service by then.

On the plus side, I heard from a member of staff yesterday that he thinks the 170s will make it into service ahead of the franchise's original target date for them. The driver's conversion course from 15x to 170s is quite short apparently (think it was two days) and this training was expected to start very soon. How many of the 12x class 170s can be diagrammed each day I wonder, perhaps three 2-car and six 3-car units? That's 9 Pacers gone at a stroke (mostly by cascading 150s, but is there a Pacer diagram on Maesteg-Cheltenham as well that could be directly replaced?) If the 230s do make it in time I think that just about allows the 142s to go.

That just leaves the 143s. Given that the Pacers in the valleys seem to run in pairs quite often, would it be possible to have only 7 Pacer diagrams left in service next year, all being 4-car class 143? Not even the first batch of five 769s would be enough to cover that, we need all nine and I think TfW knows that they're not going to get all nine (if any) 769s into service in 2019. Running the 37s all day instead of peak-only might reduce the number of Pacer pairs in service by one or two (but only Rhymney crews are being trained on 37s apparently, so are more 37 workings even possible?). The other thing that might help is if the PRM 153s can handle the passenger loadings elsewhere on their own; not having to double up the HOWL, Conwy valley etc. would free up a few 153s to form 150+153 formations on Rhymney valley services - would PRM 150 + PRM 153 have a similar capacity to 2x 143? Even then, I cannot see any way of completely eliminating the 143s without at least some of the 769s entering service or other alternative stock being found (which pretty much means LHCS, but the 37s are a two week conversion course for TfW drivers apparently and other locos are probably similar - how many crews sign 67s and is this enough to staff additional 67-hauled services if more were hired?).

Having traveled on the 16.09 Birmingham international to Aberystwyth and Pwllheli yesterday I think TfW hopes that the improved half hourly West Midlands service would mean TfW wouldn’t need to improve capacity on this line might be somewhat dashed given the large numbers of local users still using TfW service between Birmingham and Shrewsbury .in fact I think tfw planned to reduce carriages when the new trains arrived to no more than 4on this route(where some run as 6 cars currently,or at least they did before the recent fleet shortages)
I didn't think TfW had made clear what they plan to do with the Holyhead-Birmingham services or the even-hours departures from Aberystwyth. The ETCS-fleet is reportedly currently intended to all be 2-car, so in the hours that the Pwllheli portion runs those would indeed be 4-car between Machynlleth and Birmingham. However, in the other hours it's unclear whether the Aberystwyth unit would run through to Birmingham and I don't know whether they would be willing to mix ETCS-fitted and non-fitted units in the same train by coupling a unit from Wrexham/Holyhead/Shrewsbury onto the Cambrian trains at Shrewsbury.

I think the answer to the title of this thread, is that in general, TfW's fleet replacement in 2022-24 will not be a disaster, but TfW's plan to meet the PRM deadline on 1/1/2020 is now very difficult, if not impossible, to meet.
As noted above, I don't fully understand what TfW have planned for what is currently the ETCS-curcuit (Cambrian-Birmingham-Holyhead) but from my understanding of the current plans I think it's more like this:
  • PRM deadline - disaster in the valleys due to nothing to replace the 143s
  • Treherbert/Merthyr Tydfil/Aberdare fleet replacement 2022-24 - unsatisfactory, but potentially resolvable after a few years by cascading the toiletless units to shorter routes
  • Rhymney fleet replacement 2022-24 - largely positive
  • Long distance fleet replacement 2022-24 - positive in capacity terms on most routes, negative in quality terms, disaster for the Cambrian and potentially a disaster in environmental terms

So why are TfW still insisting all Pacers in Wales will be gone by January? Either they are lying, know something we don't, or are being prevented from telling the truth by Welsh Govt.
Can't see how it will be possible to eliminate the Pacers entirely by the end of the year. Will be embarrassing for TfW but surely they will have to apply for a derogation.
Wasn't there a rumour that TfW had asked for a derogation but were refused it? If that's true (and I've no idead whether it is) then TfW may well be telling the truth - after all if they legally have to be withdrawn they will be - even though they know they will not be able to replace them (or, if they can, only by extensive short forming).

Wonder why this wasn't addressed during Aviva's stewardship of the franchise. The powers that be could have replaced all the Pacers in the UK much sooner.
Perhaps the biggest disaster of all was the decision to let a no-growth franchise finishing that close to the PRM deadline. Arriva Trains Wales had no requirement to PRM their stock, since their franchise finished before the deadline, but not enough time was allowed for the next TOC to solve it. Perhaps ATW's should have been a 10 or 12 year no-growth franchise instead of 15 years.
 

Tomos y Tanc

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This thread asks the wrong question in my view. People just want their trains to run.

The real question is would the DfT prevent TfW from providing a train service?
 

Cardiff123

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This thread asks the wrong question in my view. People just want their trains to run.

The real question is would the DfT prevent TfW from providing a train service?
Well seeing as DfT have granted Northern derogations for their 144s, there's no reason why the DfT can't do the same for TfW Rail (Keolis Amey).
The problem I suspect is that Keolis Amey are first answerable to Welsh Govt before they can go to the DfT.
 

Bikeman78

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Running the 37s all day instead of peak-only might reduce the number of Pacer pairs in service by one or two (but only Rhymney crews are being trained on 37s apparently, so are more 37 workings even possible?). The other thing that might help is if the PRM 153s can handle the passenger loadings elsewhere on their own; not having to double up the HOWL, Conwy valley etc. would free up a few 153s to form 150+153 formations on Rhymney valley services - would PRM 150 + PRM 153 have a similar capacity to 2x 143?

I'm not sure if 153s have been to Rhymney. 158s were quite common in 2004 and 2005 but I cannot specifically recall a 153 going there. A 150+153 is 63m compared with 60m for a pair of Pacers. I think all the valleys crew sign 153s; they cover most of the Radyr to Coryton trains so Rhymney and Treherbert crew are bound to work them on that line.
 

Speed43125

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Quick question, If you have a PRM 150 say, why not double it up with another piece of non-PRM stock? why double up a two sets that are PRM, when using one that is and one that isn't surely is not only easier (in terms of refurb required) but also have have more capacity? Is that possible? or only if they have gangways? or whats the situation there if anyone could enlighten me?
 

Oxfordblues

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I hope I don't start another tedious and tendentious Brexit row here, but the official DfT description is "European Regulation on technical specifications for interoperability relating to persons with reduced mobility".

Let us suppose that some units fail to comply with this European Regulation by the deadline, as seems increasingly likely, and are refused a derogation by the relevant officials in Brussels, as is quite possible. Will the EU send Inspectors to the UK on 01 January 2020 to enforce the regulation and have the offending trains immobilised? Would they be accompanied by security officers in case there is any resistance?

Let us also suppose that the UK has meanwhile left the EU. Will the TOCs and ROSCOs then tell the Inspectors to mind their own business?

The regulation is of course well-meaning and everyone agrees that people with reduced mobility should have easier access, but why is the UK industry seemingly so scared of being caught-out by the European Union?
 

Cardiff123

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I hope I don't start another tedious and tendentious Brexit row here, but the official DfT description is "European Regulation on technical specifications for interoperability relating to persons with reduced mobility".

Let us suppose that some units fail to comply with this European Regulation by the deadline, as seems increasingly likely, and are refused a derogation by the relevant officials in Brussels, as is quite possible. Will the EU send Inspectors to the UK on 01 January 2020 to enforce the regulation and have the offending trains immobilised? Would they be accompanied by security officers in case there is any resistance?

Let us also suppose that the UK has meanwhile left the EU. Will the TOCs and ROSCOs then tell the Inspectors to mind their own business?

The regulation is of course well-meaning and everyone agrees that people with reduced mobility should have easier access, but why is the UK industry seemingly so scared of being caught-out by the European Union?
The PRM standards are EU stanards but it's completely a UK govt decision to make 1/1/2020 the deadline. The EU PRM stanards state that only new trains built after a certain date must be PRM compliant. The UK govt decided that the law must apply to all trains in service on 1/1/2020. Therefore, 'no inspectors from Brussels' will be refusing anything, hence why the DfT are the dept issuing derogations for pre-privstisation stock.

Brexit will have nothing to do with, or affect the 1/1/2020 PRM deadline. So let's stop this EU bashing straight away.
 
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Rhydgaled

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I'm not sure if 153s have been to Rhymney. 158s were quite common in 2004 and 2005 but I cannot specifically recall a 153 going there. A 150+153 is 63m compared with 60m for a pair of Pacers. I think all the valleys crew sign 153s; they cover most of the Radyr to Coryton trains so Rhymney and Treherbert crew are bound to work them on that line.
Thanks for the answer. So, the formations would be a similar length. The question is whether the extra 3 metres of the 150+153 combo offset the loss of seating capacity due to the fittment of accessible toilets to the 150s and 153s but not the Pacers they would be replacing. And, of course, actually having enough 150s and 153s to do that in the first place.

I hope I don't start another tedious and tendentious Brexit row here, but the official DfT description is "European Regulation on technical specifications for interoperability relating to persons with reduced mobility".

Let us suppose that some units fail to comply with this European Regulation by the deadline, as seems increasingly likely, and are refused a derogation by the relevant officials in Brussels, as is quite possible. Will the EU send Inspectors to the UK on 01 January 2020 to enforce the regulation and have the offending trains immobilised? Would they be accompanied by security officers in case there is any resistance?

Let us also suppose that the UK has meanwhile left the EU. Will the TOCs and ROSCOs then tell the Inspectors to mind their own business?

The regulation is of course well-meaning and everyone agrees that people with reduced mobility should have easier access, but why is the UK industry seemingly so scared of being caught-out by the European Union?
One of the modules on my degree course (the module probably had a title like 'Professional Development', it certainly was NOT a law degree) had a small section on some of the legal issues us students might face after graduation. One of the things we were told was that the EU does not make legislation that directly effects citizens (or, at least, that's how I understood it). Instead they make directives which instruct member states to implement certain regulations. If my understanding is correct, the TOCs and ROSCOs would therefore not be directly bound by the EU's PRM TSI and it would not be enforced by EU officials. Instead the UK government would have been required to implement the regulations in UK law (which, in this case, might be RVAR (Rail Vehicle Accessiblity Regulations)?)
 

anamyd

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Instead the UK government would have been required to implement the regulations in UK law (which, in this case, might be RVAR (Rail Vehicle Accessiblity Regulations)?)
I read that the RVAR are for light rail vehicles.
 

Bikeman78

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The PRM standards are EU stanards but it's completely a UK govt decision to make 1/1/2020 the deadline. The EU PRM stanards state that only new trains built after a certain date must be PRM compliant. The UK govt decided that the law must apply to all trains in service on 1/1/2020. Therefore, 'no inspectors from Brussels' will be refusing anything, hence why the DfT are the dept issuing derogations for pre-privstisation stock.

Brexit will have nothing to do with, or affect the 1/1/2020 PRM deadline. So let's stop this EU bashing straight away.
Exactly. I can't think of any country whose existing stock will all be compliant in three months from now.
 

Gag Halfrunt

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I read that the RVAR are for light rail vehicles.
The original UK RVAR from 1998 applied to mainline trains as well as light rail, but were superseded for mainline trains by PRM-TSI in 2006. RVAR 1998 was then replaced for light rail by the Rail Vehicle Accessibility (Non-Interoperable Rail System) Regulations 2010 (RVAR 2010).

On a general point, EU law distinguishes between directives, which require national legislation, and regulations, which do not. The current PRM-TSI legislation comprises two regulations.
 

anamyd

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The original UK RVAR from 1998 applied to mainline trains as well as light rail, but were superseded for mainline trains by PRM-TSI in 2006. RVAR 1998 was then replaced for light rail by the Rail Vehicle Accessibility (Non-Interoperable Rail System) Regulations 2010 (RVAR 2010).

On a general point, EU law distinguishes between directives, which require national legislation, and regulations, which do not. The current PRM-TSI legislation comprises two regulations.
Thanks for that! So the 175s and 170s were built to the RVAR 1998.
 

Tomos y Tanc

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There was a very odd exchange at Industry Questions in the Assembly today where the Minister painted a very rosy picture of what would will happen come January. Here's the money quote.

"I'm delighted to be able to tell Members today that, next week, I will be detailing how we will be achieving a 10 per cent increase in capacity at the end of this year on the rail franchise network. Members will be interested as well to hear more about the four-carriage trains that are going to be introduced on peak Valleys lines services, which will provide more space for commuters every week. We're going to be introducing—and I'll detail this next week, again—more modern trains with more space and onboard passenger information systems, accessible toilets and free Wi-Fi, and I'll be detailing improved long-distance services between north Wales and Manchester, as well as a much improved journey time between south Wales and north Wales."

God knows how all that's going to be achieved!
http://record.assembly.wales/Plenary/5848
http://record.assembly.wales/Plenary/5848
 

anamyd

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There was a very odd exchange at Industry Questions in the Assembly today where the Minister painted a very rosy picture of what would will happen come January. Here's the money quote.

"I'm delighted to be able to tell Members today that, next week, I will be detailing how we will be achieving a 10 per cent increase in capacity at the end of this year on the rail franchise network. Members will be interested as well to hear more about the four-carriage trains that are going to be introduced on peak Valleys lines services, which will provide more space for commuters every week. We're going to be introducing—and I'll detail this next week, again—more modern trains with more space and onboard passenger information systems, accessible toilets and free Wi-Fi, and I'll be detailing improved long-distance services between north Wales and Manchester, as well as a much improved journey time between south Wales and north Wales."

God knows how all that's going to be achieved!
http://record.assembly.wales/Plenary/5848
Thanks for making me aware of this; I was only searching the committee meetings :p
 

Cardiff123

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There was a very odd exchange at Industry Questions in the Assembly today where the Minister painted a very rosy picture of what would will happen come January. Here's the money quote.

"I'm delighted to be able to tell Members today that, next week, I will be detailing how we will be achieving a 10 per cent increase in capacity at the end of this year on the rail franchise network. Members will be interested as well to hear more about the four-carriage trains that are going to be introduced on peak Valleys lines services, which will provide more space for commuters every week. We're going to be introducing—and I'll detail this next week, again—more modern trains with more space and onboard passenger information systems, accessible toilets and free Wi-Fi, and I'll be detailing improved long-distance services between north Wales and Manchester, as well as a much improved journey time between south Wales and north Wales."

God knows how all that's going to be achieved!
http://record.assembly.wales/Plenary/5848
I assume the four carriage trains Skates is talking about are the 769s, he can't be talking about anything else. Perhaps he needs to visit Canton himself to see the reality.
 

JetStream

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"Much improved journey time between South Wales and North Wales"??

That'll be more 'express' services then, Wrexham, Shrewsbury, (Hereford?), Newport? Because there's no other way I can see "much improved" journey times.
 

DarloRich

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So why are TfW still insisting all Pacers in Wales will be gone by January? Either they are lying, know something we don't, or are being prevented from telling the truth by Welsh Govt.

Why does this board always look for a conspiracy? The reality will be that TfW will announce a delay when they know what the alternative is and when they have a derogation in place. They just need to find the best time to release the news to manage the fall out!
 
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