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Could extending PAYG in the London & South East area result in simpler fares?

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Fawkes Cat

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Won't 'simple' mean something like
- simple to use (so easy to touch in and out) and
- simple to understand in the vast majority of cases?

So a long tail of easements, special conditions and so on won't be a problem in that not many people will be travelling from Dorchester South to Margate so not many people will get caught by that having some complicated rules.
 
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The Ham

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Given that there's going to be people with season tickets and you don't need to even be on a train which stops where you split tickets if suggest that there'll be a facility for "auto tapping" in that you'll be assumed to have trapped at an intermediate station where there's a split in your ticket based on the time taken from tapping in and tapping out.

Likewise a tap at a station which confirms a change (such as tapping to enter the underground network) would also auto tap for an exit from another station.

Such auto tapping wouldn't be a known part of the system, however could invite additional charges if it's identified that a passenger is relying on them rather than tapping as required.

In doing so you could be charged the correct cost based on if you got a fast train or a slow train or took route A or B based on the services available.

Some may decide to cheat by waiting at a station before tapping out, however given that there'll still be ticket checks, most stations aren't that great to wait at and the very big stations you need to leave the platforms to use the main facilities the level of abuse would likely be fairly small.

Given that you'll have data on those who try it, and those who are likely to benefit the most from such a loophole are likely to be those making the journey often, so you'll be able to direct ticket checks to ensure that these problems ate minimised. You could even direct staff, in real time, to undertake a ticket check within a station to catch those trying to wait for a cheaper ticket who are known to have done it in the past.

With the level of CCTV coverage it would be possible to cross check tap in with tap out and services joined/left in the case of dispute. This would require an assumption that the passenger did the right thing unless there is evidence to show that wasn't the case. This would simplify disputes as there would need to be clear evidence of wrong doing (noisy likely video).

It wouldn't require shifting through hours of video as the tap in tap out times would be known, as would the few services which would have been available and the actual times of those services.

Tap out failure would be fairly limited, and for most people again if there was a unit failure they could be cross checked against their normal route patterns with video checking. This could be done on a £100 penalty with a charge of £100 to undertake such a check (paid in advance), with all charges waived/refunded if the individual was found to have made the journey they claimed to have done (basically, a double or nothing charge), few who are guilty would request such an additional fee be assigned to them.

Again the assumption would need to be that there had to be evidence to show wrong doing.

Whilst this could cause problems for stations with limited CCTV coverage when first adopted such stations are likely to be fairly limited in passenger numbers and you could always send in some RPI's of you think that there's a problem. If there is then add some new CCTV and you'll be able to enforce again, and now easily than at present.
 

JonathanH

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There is a question as to whether Dorchester South to Waterloo should be seen as an inter-regional service and therefore be treated under Bletchleyite's 'specific train' barcode ticket group rather than PAYG. Is Dorchester South to Waterloo different from Grantham to Kings Cross just because the train doesn't have a pointy end and there are fewer settlements in Lincolnshire than Dorset?

I must admit that I never make a journey using Contactless without checking the fare on the single fare - there are too many anomalies - why doesn't Whitechapel to Upper Holloway have a pink reader route to avoid zone 1?

Are there going to be pink readers all over the place or will it cost the same to go from Dorchester South to Margate via London as via the Coast? A quest for simplicity would say that pink readers are not needed and every pair of stations has a set fare that applies regardless of route.
 
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Bletchleyite

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There is a question as to whether Dorchester South to Waterloo should be seen as an inter-regional service and therefore be treated under Bletchleyite's 'specific train' barcode ticket group rather than PAYG. Is Dorchester South to Waterloo different from Grantham to Kings Cross just because the train doesn't have a pointy end and there are fewer settlements in Lincolnshire than Dorset?

I would see it as likely to be done by TOC. That does cause inconsistencies - you'd be able to travel from London to Liverpool on LNR on contactless, but to use VT or successor you'd need a compulsory reservation barcoded ticket - but it is understandable ("you can use that on the green train but not the red train" is not that hard to follow[1]) and is how it is in more countries than it isn't. Our Germanic-style "everything's a train" system is much less common.

[1] As a kid we knew well that you could use ticket X on the "green bus" (the Merseyside PTE one) but not the "red bus" (the Ribble one from Preston).
 

Meerkat

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It has complexity because TfL implemented a zonal paper-ticket based fare structure on contactless.

If you want to see how to do it without this complexity, look at the Dutch OV-Chipkaart system which was designed from scratch.

Can you give me the executive summary pretty please?
 

Bletchleyite

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Given that there's going to be people with season tickets and you don't need to even be on a train which stops where you split tickets if suggest that there'll be a facility for "auto tapping" in that you'll be assumed to have trapped at an intermediate station where there's a split in your ticket based on the time taken from tapping in and tapping out.

You are making the assumption that what used to be condition 19(c) will remain in place. It's a complication that doesn't affect the majority of users. I could see it being dropped. It is not, for instance, available when making a journey using Oyster PAYG or TfL Contactless in any form.

Most of the use-cases for it would disappear if IC ticketing was completely separated from regional/commuter ticketing, in any case.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Can you give me the executive summary pretty please?

Each transport operator defines a kilometric rate. You touch in and out with each operator (yes, even rail - interchanges have multiple platform validators for this purpose).

On top you are charged a "touch in fee" (I forget what it's called) for each unique journey. It's the same journey if on touching out you touch back in within a certain time (I forget what that is).

More info:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OV-chipkaart
 

PeterC

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I would see it as likely to be done by TOC. That does cause inconsistencies - you'd be able to travel from London to Liverpool on LNR on contactless, but to use VT or successor you'd need a compulsory reservation barcoded ticket - but it is understandable ("you can use that on the green train but not the red train" is not that hard to follow[1]) and is how it is in more countries than it isn't. Our Germanic-style "everything's a train" system is much less common.

[1] As a kid we knew well that you could use ticket X on the "green bus" (the Merseyside PTE one) but not the "red bus" (the Ribble one from Preston).
You could still accept walk ups with PAYG, the ticket inspection would just put a flag on the account to charge the IC fare rather than the regional fare. It would be an incentive to do on-train inspections. Either way it would work best with a consistent InterCity brand common to all TOCs so that the passenger would recognise the excluded or more expensive service wherever they were.
 

DynamicSpirit

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It has complexity because TfL implemented a zonal paper-ticket based fare structure on contactless.

I'm not convinced of that. Certainly, I think that the zonal system in London has itself become too complex to be much useful, and would be far better replaced by distance-based individual fares. However, the issues I'm pointing out mostly don't have anything to do with the zonal system - they are fundamental problems associated with a contactless system where you don't get charged until after the system sees which station you exited at: Problems like, potentially not knowing when you start your journey how much you'll be charged, how to set a maximum fare, the need for out of station interchanges and routing knowledge (unless you make all fares completely route-independent), how to avoid fraud (which becomes a much more serious issue when journeys are longer and so fares potentially higher) and so on.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think there are other ways to handle fraud with contactless than having to charge the fare to Wick if someone gets on at Euston and forgets to touch out at South Kenton. One idea I just came up with was sort of based on Penalty Fares and could work like this.

The first time in a calendar year you fail to touch out, you're charged a £20 fee to your card which is non-refundable.
The second time in a calendar year your card is blocked. To re-enable it you have to call a call centre (inconvenience) and agree to pay a £50 fee.
The third time in a calendar year your card is blocked again permanently. To use it again you would have to get a new card from your bank.

An appeals process similar to that for PFs could be in place for this to consider things like failed equipment.

You might get the odd person who would keep getting new cards to stay ahead, but most fare dodging is casual and it would control casual "not touching out as the maximum fare is cheaper than the actual fare" due to the severe inconvenience of it.
 

DynamicSpirit

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I think there are other ways to handle fraud with contactless than having to charge the fare to Wick if someone gets on at Euston and forgets to touch out at South Kenton. One idea I just came up with was sort of based on Penalty Fares and could work like this.

The first time in a calendar year you fail to touch out, you're charged a £20 fee to your card which is non-refundable.
The second time in a calendar year your card is blocked. To re-enable it you have to call a call centre (inconvenience) and agree to pay a £50 fee.
The third time in a calendar year your card is blocked again permanently. To use it again you would have to get a new card from your bank.

An appeals process similar to that for PFs could be in place for this to consider things like failed equipment.

I think that would certainly work in terms of deterring fraud, but it seems unnecessarily harsh in terms of dealing with genuine mistakes. Personally, I make most of my Oyster journeys between stations that have barriers, and I know from experience that when I make the occasional entry/exit at a station that doesn't have them, it's amazingly easy to forget to touch in/out - because I'm so used to the barriers serving as a reminder. It's also very easy, on those occasions when I venture outside London and so have a paper ticket, to forget I've got a paper ticket covering my entire journey and touch in or out with my Oyster at some point, thus incurring a maximum fare for a journey that I've already paid for. If those kinds of scenarios attracted an automatic £20 penalty and I had to go through an appeals process to get the money back - and then a blocked card the 2nd time it happened, I for one would be *extremely* pissed off - I'm sure the bad publicity the railways would get from tens of thousands of passengers in similar situations would be horrendous. For that reason, I don't think your proposed solution is workable.

At the moment it's fine - when those kinds of mistakes happen, I just phone the Oyster helpline and TfL have never failed to refund the money with no questions asked (although a couple of times they've mentioned that if I am claiming a valid paper ticket, then on future occasions, I may need to email them a scan of the ticket). I'm guessing that they can work like this because the amounts of money involved are usually so small that it's just not going to be worth significant numbers of people fraudulently getting money back by lying about their journeys - hence almost all calls will be honest so it's safe to believe people who phone to ask for refunds. (Although I wouldn't be surprised if, unbeknownst to me, the TfL operative is checking my Oyster history when deciding how to respond to the claim too). Obviously, if the refunds in question start typically being the values of tickets from London to Westenhanger or Basingstoke to Crawley, then the situation will be very different.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm sure the bad publicity the railways would get from tens of thousands of passengers in similar situations would be horrendous. For that reason, I don't think your proposed solution is workable.

Do you reckon? With a similar magnitude of ticketing error on paper tickets, you might incur a £20 PF or prosecution. The former is about the same - the latter orders of magnitude more serious than having to go to your bank for a new card number.

This does not appear to cause a furore in the Press.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Do you reckon? With a similar magnitude of ticketing error on paper tickets, you might incur a £20 PF or prosecution. The former is about the same - the latter orders of magnitude more serious than having to go to your bank for a new card number.

This does not appear to cause a furore in the Press.

The difference is of course that, with paper tickets, so strong is the expectation that you buy a ticket before you travel - and the process of buying a ticket is sufficiently memorable - that almost noone who does actually intend to buy a ticket is going to genuinely and accidentally forget to do so before jumping on a train. With Oyster/contactless, the culture becomes much more that you hop on a train with no more than a quick touch of your card on a barrier - much easier to forget.

As an illustration - there have actually been a couple of times when I've walked into a station without barriers (or where the barriers have been left open) - reached the platform and realised that I can't actually remember whether I've touched in or not - that's how automatic and forgetful the process is! That would never happen (at least to me) for buying a paper ticket because the ticket-buying process is much more memorable.
 

hkstudent

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The difference is of course that, with paper tickets, so strong is the expectation that you buy a ticket before you travel - and the process of buying a ticket is sufficiently memorable - that almost noone who does actually intend to buy a ticket is going to genuinely and accidentally forget to do so before jumping on a train. With Oyster/contactless, the culture becomes much more that you hop on a train with no more than a quick touch of your card on a barrier - much easier to forget.

As an illustration - there have actually been a couple of times when I've walked into a station without barriers (or where the barriers have been left open) - reached the platform and realised that I can't actually remember whether I've touched in or not - that's how automatic and forgetful the process is! That would never happen (at least to me) for buying a paper ticket because the ticket-buying process is much more memorable.
Indeed, I think we would forget that easily.
But in another way, travelling would be less hassle as you don't need to buy a ticket in advance
 

PeterC

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The difference is of course that, with paper tickets, so strong is the expectation that you buy a ticket before you travel - and the process of buying a ticket is sufficiently memorable - that almost noone who does actually intend to buy a ticket is going to genuinely and accidentally forget to do so before jumping on a train. With Oyster/contactless, the culture becomes much more that you hop on a train with no more than a quick touch of your card on a barrier - much easier to forget.

As an illustration - there have actually been a couple of times when I've walked into a station without barriers (or where the barriers have been left open) - reached the platform and realised that I can't actually remember whether I've touched in or not - that's how automatic and forgetful the process is! That would never happen (at least to me) for buying a paper ticket because the ticket-buying process is much more memorable.
The problem comes where readers are not in the passenger' sight lines on entering the station. You get to the platform, look round and realise there is no reader while touching in is so automatic that you really can't remember if you passed one earlier.
 
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