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Caledonian Sleeper

TheAlbanach_

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1 Jul 2017
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First experience of a MKV, I'm in the seated section. Only boarded about 10 mins ago and still not left yet (it's 0015, and I'm on the lowland heading north). What is going on with these horrid headache enduring lights at the top of the window frame? Seems to be a trend these days that every new train be as bright as possible. Really makes travel miserable for people like me who suffer headaches/migraines daily. But, apart from the horrid lights, I really like the seats, lots of space and the wee locker it's really useful, such a good idea.
 
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47271

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Just on sharing, I've just remembered a very funny story told to me by a Highlander regular a few years ago, I think that he might be a Dunkeld passenger well known on the train.

It refers to his younger days on the old Scotland-Plymouth sleeper, with its business held up by the Royal Navy transferring personnel between Rosyth and Devonport.

He occupied the top bunk in a shared cabin from Edinburgh. He was travelling to Taunton, but the older man below was going to Plymouth. The older man sensibly declined the offer of a trip to the lounge on departure.

He fell into some bad company with a group of naval officers and, full of whisky, finally came to bed at 3am. Very capable of holding his drink, he was proud of himself for climbing up the ladder and going to bed near silently.

The attendant came round just after Bristol to wake him up with a coffee and custard cream or whatever it was in those days. For reasons best known to alcohol, when he put his arm our to take the tray, he had no strength in it and the cup and saucer shot off with the biscuit and crashed to the floor from a great height, smashing right by the other passenger's head.

The outcome at the time was all very passive aggressive and British, but he did say that this story was the main reason why he'd never share a cabin again - he didn't want to come up against the idiotic behaviour of his younger self!
 

Bletchleyite

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First experience of a MKV, I'm in the seated section. Only boarded about 10 mins ago and still not left yet (it's 0015, and I'm on the lowland heading north).

If you looked out on the right you might have seen me (tall bloke, red fleece, rucksack) loitering around at the back of P11 waiting for the LNR... <waves retrospectively> :)

Hope you get to where you're going!
 

Scotrail84

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First experience of a MKV, I'm in the seated section. Only boarded about 10 mins ago and still not left yet (it's 0015, and I'm on the lowland heading north). What is going on with these horrid headache enduring lights at the top of the window frame? Seems to be a trend these days that every new train be as bright as possible. Really makes travel miserable for people like me who suffer headaches/migraines daily. But, apart from the horrid lights, I really like the seats, lots of space and the wee locker it's really useful, such a good idea.

LED lights, they can’t be dimmed anymore that that. If the window lights go off then the roof strip lights must be on. The lights on the roof are brighter that the window lights.
 

Journeyman

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The seats are still quite cheap?

They're cheap for a reason. If you need to actually sleep on-board, i.e. get off the train and go to work, the seats really aren't an option.

Of course, the pod flatbed idea would have been great if Serco had been able to pull it off, as it would have been a budget option that would have been pretty comfortable - the gap left by it is certainly being quite keenly felt.
 

paul1609

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They're cheap for a reason. If you need to actually sleep on-board, i.e. get off the train and go to work, the seats really aren't an option.

Of course, the pod flatbed idea would have been great if Serco had been able to pull it off, as it would have been a budget option that would have been pretty comfortable - the gap left by it is certainly being quite keenly felt.

Personally if travelling to Scotland I find Megabus a better option then the CS Seats. It's generally a lot cheaper and as it only stops once between London and Glasgow (for the driver changeover at Lancaster services) its easier to sleep, the lights are dimmed or out as well. I avoid National Express because of multiple breaks in Motorway Services.
 

Bletchleyite

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Personally if travelling to Scotland I find Megabus a better option then the CS Seats. It's generally a lot cheaper and as it only stops once between London and Glasgow (for the driver changeover at Lancaster services) its easier to sleep, the lights are dimmed or out as well. I avoid National Express because of multiple breaks in Motorway Services.

Narrower seats and far smaller legroom, though.

I do think there needs to be a change to the rules regarding lighting on sleeper trains, though. They simply weren't written taking into account the nature of such a service. Faint blue or red LED lighting should be adequate for the overnight stretch. The risks and general situation is basically identical to an aircraft, so following the same kind of approach to lighting as an aircraft makes sense.
 

Bletchleyite

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Of course, the pod flatbed idea would have been great if Serco had been able to pull it off, as it would have been a budget option that would have been pretty comfortable - the gap left by it is certainly being quite keenly felt.

I certainly agree with that. A couchette type option is sorely lacking.
 

Bletchleyite

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The regulations do have different rules for sleeper carriages compared to day trains.

In which case, there is a need to change the regulations with regard to sleeper train seated coaches so a lower level of lighting is acceptable. It is safe on aircraft and it is safe on coaches, both with a much lower level of restfully-coloured lighting. The situation is not really much different.

While it's quite stylish, for instance, the lighting on the Riviera seated coach (not been on the Mk5s yet) is brighter than on a Class 390, this is silly.
 

BRX

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Personally if travelling to Scotland I find Megabus a better option then the CS Seats. It's generally a lot cheaper and as it only stops once between London and Glasgow (for the driver changeover at Lancaster services) its easier to sleep, the lights are dimmed or out as well. I avoid National Express because of multiple breaks in Motorway Services.
Maybe to Glasgow but it's not much cheaper if you're travelling to eg. Inverness is it? Along with taking a lot longer.
 

Mogz

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I agree, a Couchette option is badly needed here to fill the gap between the high price of the sleepers and the budget (but un-sleepable) seats.

I’ve travelled in 6 bunk couchette compartments on the continent before now and has as good a night’s sleep as in a Caledonian Sleeper.

The added bonus is that they can be used as day compartments too with the bunks folded up, or converted to seating for the early evening/ morning after.
 

Bletchleyite

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The difficulty with couchettes is that you might have trouble doing 3 high due to the lack of height in UK stock. 2 high wouldn't take up much less space than a pair of Classic compartments. Lengthways would be good (I sleep very well in these in Thailand and on the old Talgo ones in Germany), but would suffer the problems the pods did - basically the concern was, because the trains reverse, that someone sleeping with their head towards the direction of travel may suffer a broken spine in the event of a collision. So the only workable option is transverse, but then you've got the issue of them not really saving much space.
 

jellybaby

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In which case, there is a need to change the regulations with regard to sleeper train seated coaches so a lower level of lighting is acceptable.
Is there? Perhaps the lights are brighter than the regulations require? Has anyone measured the light levels? (Apps are available which give an approximation).

I did find the regulations about 18 months ago but can't today. I thought I posted them to one of the Riviera threads but I can't find that either.
 

FQTV

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The difficulty with couchettes is that you might have trouble doing 3 high due to the lack of height in UK stock. 2 high wouldn't take up much less space than a pair of Classic compartments. Lengthways would be good (I sleep very well in these in Thailand and on the old Talgo ones in Germany), but would suffer the problems the pods did - basically the concern was, because the trains reverse, that someone sleeping with their head towards the direction of travel may suffer a broken spine in the event of a collision. So the only workable option is transverse, but then you've got the issue of them not really saving much space.

Forgive me if I have missed it, but I have never actually seen any official reference to 'safety' regarding the decision not to progress a 'pod' seating option. Do you have a link at all?

Putting that to one side, however, I can see that it's more than likely that economics and commercial reality would put-paid to the idea of 'pods' anyhow.

If a comparison is made with longhaul post war air travel, broadly-speaking, all passengers started out being accommodated in the same kind of seats. After a while, airlines started making some seats smaller and some a bit bigger. There was a hiatus around the advent of the wide-bodies, the L-1011s, DC-10s and 747s, with some short-lived dalliances with lounge type seating, but the 70s oil crisis, deregulation, competition et al meant that seating densities overall largely reverted to higher levels.

In the early 80s and onwards, airlines started introducing premium 'cabins' with much larger seats, offering significantly more recline.

In the 90s, the first commercial airline flat bed 'pod' seat was introduced in First Class, as aircraft were by then demarked by up to four cabin classes. During the early 2000s, flat bed pod seats were steadily rolled-out to become, largely, the Business Class norm.

As this happened, many airlines took the opportunity to retire their First Class products, as it became increasingly difficult to maintain a commercially-viable gap between two flat bed products.

Accordingly, longhaul airlines started at the opposite end of the scale from overnight sleeper trains in terms of accommodation density and, although the notion of multi-level couchette type bunks on 'planes is floated every now and again, they have thus far not been progressed as they're largely incompatible with the way that airline service works.

The railway in this conext, however, started not just with multi-level sleeping platforms but, almost from the outset, with private rooms. Multi-level sleeping being, generally-speaking, an extremely efficient use of floor space and one that can be priced accordingly.

So, even if there was a safety edict, imagine a pair of airline Business Class flat beds, 6'6" long and about 46" wide, plus the pod 'cocoons' surrounding them. Now work out whether you could get one of those pairs sideways against the outer wall, under the window of a sleeper room. The answer: I don't think that you can, and you'd lose the washbasin too. If the safety angle isn't in fact true, then 'herringbone' arrangements would be a bit more efficient, but not massively-so. In a single aisle UK rail situation, you'd probably stick with 1-2 across the aisle, but you'd need sufficient separation at the foot of the pairs to avoid the 'climbover'.

To move to a pod arrangement in seated accommodation would therefore be less efficient than normal seating and quite possibly, multilevel sleeping platforms. The only way that that could be reconciled would be by pricing it accordingly. However, it would be significantly less private, and potentially a good deal less quiet, comfortable and secure than a sleeper room.

So, how would you price it? The quality of service would be below that of a room, but the land-grab could be a bit higher. The quality of service would be much higher than that of a seat, but the land-grab would be significantly higher. You could cannibalise demand from rooms, or you could find that you had to underprice them to such an extent that the seats are no longer viable and the real low-cost option disappears.

And how would you police self-upgraders who had bought seats and help themselves to a vacant pod? Without airline staff ratios (and it even happens on 'planes with them) it'd be a challenge.

On that basis, the whole notion of pods seems to me to be a complete commercial non-starter in the context of a sleeper train.

The only way that I could see them being relevant on a train at all is as a premium option on services which do not convey sleeper accommodation - which is effectively what Trenitalia and some Asian operators do with their high-end options.

To think about couchettes instead, within the UK loading guage, again I think that the economics are stacked against them from the operator point of view. Floor-space wise, you'd at most save the width of one washbasin width per pair of current rooms. So, that means that you'd need about 5/6ths of the floorspace assuming no narrowing of the sleeping areas themselves. If the operator is working on 100% occupancy of rooms, and it's £200 a room, and they can use all the released space to increase capacity pro-rata, then they'd need 100% occupancy of each couchette at £42 per mattress to make the same revenue.

They would, however, have to balance this against the opportunity loss of not being able to sell 0.83 £200 rooms per two couchettes to someone or a pair who wanted privacy, as well as the incremental costs of marketing to and fulfilling service for potentially 20% more passengers.

The only way that this would work, I think, would be if you applied the no-frills airlines business model and see each ticketholder as an add-on sales opportunity. To do that, you'd need to significantly increase the opportunities for high-margin 'on-spend' - which would usually be for things such as food and drink. However, again, you then have to assess whether the folks that you're attracting with lower prices are actually going to display a propensity to make up all the revenue gap propping up the bar. And if they do, you need more staff.......

On that basis, if it's a reasonably accurate assessment, I can see exactly why CS has specified the stock in the way it has, and I would probably have done the same.
 
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Potentially silly suggestion, but would the issues with bright lights in the seated coach not simply be solved by wearing an eye mask? I wonder if it would be worth CS providing one to seated passengers as part of their fare.
 

JonathanH

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Potentially silly suggestion, but would the issues with bright lights in the seated coach not simply be solved by wearing an eye mask? I wonder if it would be worth CS providing one to seated passengers as part of their fare.

They do give one out (and a set of ear plugs) as part of the fare. They are very useful, not least for then travelling on coaches overnight, where they are not supplied.

Nevertheless, it would be nicer if there were softer lights on the seated coach of the sleeper.
 

jumble

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Yes it always happened to someone else.
I agree

The Royal College of Anaesthetists seem to think this gassing business in motorhomes is a fairy story
I cannot see why the same would not apply to trains

Despite the increasing numbers of reports of people being gassed in motor-homes or commercial trucks in France, and the warning put out by the Foreign Office for travellers to be aware of this danger, this College remains of the view that this is a myth.

It is the view of the College that it would not be possible to render someone unconscious by blowing ether, chloroform or any of the currently used volatile anaesthetic agents, through the window of a motor-home without their knowledge, even if they were sleeping at the time. Ether is an extremely pungent agent and a relatively weak anaesthetic by modern standards and has a very irritant affect on the air passages, causing coughing and sometimes vomiting. It takes some time to reach unconsciousness, even if given by direct application to the face on a cloth, and the concentration needed by some sort of spray administered directly into a room would be enormous. The smell hangs around for days and would be obvious to anyone the next day. Even the more powerful modern volatile agents would need to be delivered in tankerloads of carrier gas by a large compressor. Potential agents, such as the one used by the Russians in the Moscow siege are few in number and difficult to obtain. Moreover, these drugs would be too expensive for the average thief to use.

The other important point to remember is that general anaesthetics are potentially very dangerous, which is why they are only administered in the UK by doctors who have undergone many years of postgraduate training in the subject and who remain with the unconscious patient throughout the anaesthetic. Unsupervised patients are likely to die from obstruction of the airway by their tongues falling back. In the Moscow seige approximately 20% of the people died, many probably from airway obstruction directly related to the agent used.

If there was a totally safe, odourless, potent, cheap anaesthetic agent available to thieves for this purpose it is likely the medical profession would know about it and be investigating its use in anaesthetic practice.
 

bastien

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I agree

The Royal College of Anaesthetists seem to think this gassing business in motorhomes is a fairy story
I cannot see why the same would not apply to trains

Despite the increasing numbers of reports of people being gassed in motor-homes or commercial trucks in France, and the warning put out by the Foreign Office for travellers to be aware of this danger, this College remains of the view that this is a myth.

It is the view of the College that it would not be possible to render someone unconscious by blowing ether, chloroform or any of the currently used volatile anaesthetic agents, through the window of a motor-home without their knowledge, even if they were sleeping at the time. Ether is an extremely pungent agent and a relatively weak anaesthetic by modern standards and has a very irritant affect on the air passages, causing coughing and sometimes vomiting. It takes some time to reach unconsciousness, even if given by direct application to the face on a cloth, and the concentration needed by some sort of spray administered directly into a room would be enormous. The smell hangs around for days and would be obvious to anyone the next day. Even the more powerful modern volatile agents would need to be delivered in tankerloads of carrier gas by a large compressor. Potential agents, such as the one used by the Russians in the Moscow siege are few in number and difficult to obtain. Moreover, these drugs would be too expensive for the average thief to use.

The other important point to remember is that general anaesthetics are potentially very dangerous, which is why they are only administered in the UK by doctors who have undergone many years of postgraduate training in the subject and who remain with the unconscious patient throughout the anaesthetic. Unsupervised patients are likely to die from obstruction of the airway by their tongues falling back. In the Moscow seige approximately 20% of the people died, many probably from airway obstruction directly related to the agent used.

If there was a totally safe, odourless, potent, cheap anaesthetic agent available to thieves for this purpose it is likely the medical profession would know about it and be investigating its use in anaesthetic practice.
Indeed. I suspect the anaesthetic substance in question is usually administered orally, in liquid form, by the victim, earlier in the evening...
 

ejstubbs

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The Royal College of Anaesthetists seem to think this gassing business in motorhomes is a fairy story

They should try telling that to my friends to whom it definitely happened while they were holidaying in Italy in the early 2000s. They bedded down in their motorhome at a fairly normal time in the latter part of the evening, and woke up the next day at about 3pm to find that the vehicle had been ransacked. They hadn't eaten or drunk anything the evening before that they hadn't prepared themselves, in the van. When they reported it to the local police, they were told they they'd probably been gassed, and that they dealt with such cases quite regularly.

Yes, it "happened to someone else" but I met them and they recounted the story about two weeks after they got back from their holiday. They were very good, close friends who I trusted and respected, and I have absolutely no reason to believe that they'd made it up.

It is possible that the police had been mistaken about the mechanism that the thieves used to break in to and ransack an occupied camper van undetected. But in the absence of any physical evidence of other ways it might have been achieved (and my friends bore no physical injuries) it does rather put the ball back in the RCA's court to come up with another plausible explanation.
 

paul1609

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Maybe to Glasgow but it's not much cheaper if you're travelling to eg. Inverness is it? Along with taking a lot longer.
I think its considerably cheaper to all the locations Megabus serve direct, Glasgow, Stirling, Perth Dundee. where its a connection to a Citylink service there less of a price advantage.
The overnight Megabus leaves Victoria at 23.00 and arrives Glasgow 7.00 and Stirling 8, perth 8.50. Arrival at Glasgow is normally early. For me arriving at Stirling is better at 8 than getting off the sleeper in the middle of the night.
 

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