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Ideas to simplify the Northern rail network and improve reliability and financial viability

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option

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Presumably breaking up through routes would be extremely unpopular with the railway's customers. It may well be more operationally convenient to run lots of short services, but surely the paying customer wants a direct train to a large city hub, ideally where there are toilets, food/drink options and shelter from the rain. Lancaster may have these things, but I don't think Oxenholme does. Anything less than this makes the train less attractive than a private car.

Local stakeholders would kick off if direct trains were axed in favour of a local branch line service. I can think of one Cumbrian MP in particular. Opposition MPs and metro mayors would then make it a manifesto issue to bring back the direct link.


It's not about "lots of short services", it's about running what is appropriate & most reliable, surely that's what customers want.
Surely the paying customer want's a service that's reliable enough to be worth using on a regular basis, & that overall gets them to where they want to go, in a reliable manner.

The rolling stock most suitable for the realities of the Windermere branch are not suitable for either a fast mainline or frequent commuter service, to a city that's 80 miles away!
What next, a direct service to London?!


Stakeholders are there to be consulted.
If they want to directly manage, & pay for, the services & infrastructure, & any knock-on effects of their decisions, then why don't they put a bid in with the DfT?
They had 13 years of a Labour government, then 5 years of coalition government, when they could have amended legislation to allow public sector bids.

I know the local authorities in the area would like every train service in the world to go to Manchester Airport, because they own a stake in it, but surely that creates a conflict of interest?
 
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Platforms 5 and 6 can be used for terminating trains, and were used for terminating Barrows and Windermeres before more through running was restored. But my experience of those trains was that they were VERY quiet south of Lancaster, and so through running was pointless. Typically through services to Manchester Airport from Barrow would near tip out at Lancaster and pick up an entire set of new passengers at Preston for Manchester. Those not continuing past Preston would be driver, guard, me, bloke, dog and bicycle, as it were.

Windermeres carry more passengers to the Airport (a LOT of Chinese tourists, interestingly), so if anything there would be more logic, particularly after it's wired, to swap them over - hourly Airport-Windermere 4-car EMU and hourly Barrow only from Lancaster (3-car Class 195), or even run it as an hourly through Lancaster to Carlisle service - it's very close to being hourly now, so again that would be a good simplification with the whole thing using dedicated units and crewed entirely from Barrow, again fully clockface all day.


Why not mix a branch shuttle, with a direct Manc/Airport train? ( Call it MAX & only do a few stops as a dedicated airport express )
Could even have the shuttle also carry on down & do Carnforth-Lancaster-Morecambe if there's going to be lots of free time.
 

Starmill

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As far as Oxenholme station goes, I can confirm that it does have a ticket office, indoor waiting areas on all platforms, toilets for passengers and two cafes. The cafes and ticket office are part time, but I understand that station staff are present full time. A windy shack on the hill it is not, and its facilities are comparable with those at Lancaster.
 

muz379

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One thing I've never really understood is this: the need to train a particular number of staff has been known about from the time of the bid. Certainly this plan should have been ready by the time the company took over. The number of staff who need to be trained hasn't particularly changed, has it? So why exactly has the progress of the training been so poor? There have been four years. Sounds like enough time to train many hundreds of members of staff to me?

I guess the numbers of staff and numbers of trains and thus projected number of drivers and depots of drivers needing training could have been fairly reliably worked out . And negotiations on arrangements for drivers training , including numbers of days , training locations , lodging agreements for training etc etc did actually start being talked about well before any training was expected to commence .

But until the trains had actually been delivered , and the implementation of the specification examined it was impossible to design the training program for the new trains . Obviously as the unit started to accrue its type testing hours real world faults started to become apparent , and even some still started becoming apparent as the units went into service .

Of course that arrival of the first unit , commencement and completion of type testing was delayed .

And then changes to different cascades of other stock , delays to 769's and hold ups with units receiving PRM mods the introduction routes changed , and with that changed the emphasis for training as well with other depots now becoming a priority . Because of the finite amount of instructors and managers passed out on the unit as well as the finite amount of new units and stabling space for them there was a maximum capacity of drivers that can be trained at once .


For those of us far from Northern metals, what is / are the actual root cause(s) to Northern's problems? I hear the viewpoints of both Grant Shapps and of Northern's MD, David Brown and I can't determine if it's Network Rail, Siemens & CAF, Northern's own management incompetence or a mixture of all of them. Who bears the brunt of the blame here and what can be realistically fixed?
I personally think its a combination of both .

Arriva taking over the franchise after years of chronic underinvestment and then being committed to introducing massive uplifts in service frequency was always going to be a recipe for disaster . But then the DFT have not helped matters , building the ordsall chord without the associated increase in platform capacity at Piccadilly and Oxford road meant that the chord could not truly be used to its full potential . Network rail also gave beyond reasonable delays with Bolton and Blackpool electrification . I think some of the plans at the start of the franchise looked far too ambitious , and that realisition is now starting to be met



But I think for passengers the main source of their anger is always going to be the company whose name is on the side of the train that turns up late and overcrowded everyday .

Strange world where between 6pm & 7pm is "late at night", & there's an entire set of small trains just for those later services.
What's wrong with the trains that would be on the service in the daytime?
Not a different set of trains , but there is a logic in say having multiple units doubled up in the peaks but stabling excess units out of peak time , particularly with diesel units where drastic savings in fuel can be made .
Presumably breaking up through routes would be extremely unpopular with the railway's customers. It may well be more operationally convenient to run lots of short services, but surely the paying customer wants a direct train to a large city hub, ideally where there are toilets, food/drink options and shelter from the rain. Lancaster may have these things, but I don't think Oxenholme does. Anything less than this makes the train less attractive than a private car.
There inevitably is some demand for through routes , but at the same time there are some service that do or are proposed to run through multiple areas of congestion or stopping at lots of stations whcih are unwise.

Shame that Preston doesn't have north facing bays as it would make the most sense running Barrow and Windermere service there (and not further wasting capacity beyond there) and then connecting with a more reliable 2tph with long 6 car 319/331 units to Hazel Grove/Man Airport in addition to the 1tph TPE Scotland- Man Airport. This would be a more sensible use of capacity through to the Castlefield corridor.
There is to my mind plenty of space to build some north facing bays at Preston , wonder what the costs associated with this as well as associated benefits could be .

Be careful what you wish for....
“Take control” of Northern to make sure future looks positive for an election, and then have no awkward company losing money if you decide to force through DOO. In fact if I was doing it I would split Northern into several companies shadowing devolved units and DOO them one at a time - legislation wouldn't allow RMT to strike at more than one unit (they would be forced to strike against a ‘lack of guarantee’ which isn’t great PR)
Why would you start or even reignite a massive dispute like that over the introduction of DOO when there are currently no units at Northern that are capable of being operated in such a way ?
 

muz379

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I would guess that the Northern franchise direct award (to either OBR or Arriva) will be the same animal - a management contract will all risk/major decisions taken by DfT and/or TfN.
At the end of the day the Arriva management team is just a bunch of consultants, who just happen to work for the same firm.
The trouble if Arriva gets this direct award is that the passengers wouldn't know that anything has changed.

It does seem a direct award to Arriva could play out in the press as rewarding failure .At the same time , it could be spun as a punishment as they are not keeping the franchise for the long term originally granted but to abruptly change direction during a time of existing uncertainty would be more damaging . The DFT could further spin it by saying under the terms of the direct award themselves or TFN will be paying much closer attention to and approving operational matters .

the DFT could be coy and place it under TFN control but without significant funding this would lead to no real world improvement making TFN look like the bad guys .

DFT themselves taking some control leaves it looking embarrassing if they did not manage to resolve the issues of which there are multiple complex ones .

One thing I can see is loads of money being thrown at a short term incentive to work Sundays for drivers which would resolve that long standing issue , some stripping back of timetable enhancements to produce a more reliable timetable so that the government can claim some success going into an election , but with no long term solutions and more short term thinking like that you are only holding off the pain for so long . Some of the things that are needed to make the service better like widening the scope of electrification , negotiating a proper Sunday contract , decision about long term strategic stock plan , resolution of the issues over the castlefield corridor capacity are long term things , the longer those decisions/actions are put off the longer its going to take to reap the benefits .
 

Bletchleyite

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Why would you start or even reignite a massive dispute like that over the introduction of DOO when there are currently no units at Northern that are capable of being operated in such a way ?

Now the strikes are done with, DOO is not really relevant to Northern's capability (or not) to operate the TOC properly. It might be relevant to its financial viability, though.
 

Bevan Price

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Shame that Preston doesn't have north facing bays as it would make the most sense running Barrow and Windermere service there (and not further wasting capacity beyond there) and then connecting with a more reliable 2tph with long 6 car 319/331 units to Hazel Grove/Man Airport in addition to the 1tph TPE Scotland- Man Airport. This would be a more sensible use of capacity through to the Castlefield corridor.

Preston has better than that - two completely unused through platforms - the original Platforms 1 & 2 - later dedicated for parcels traffic, and now virtually unused for probably at least 20 years. Just needs a bit of a cleaning, and redecorating the subway connection that still exists.
 

The Ham

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It does seem a direct award to Arriva could play out in the press as rewarding failure .At the same time , it could be spun as a punishment as they are not keeping the franchise for the long term originally granted but to abruptly change direction during a time of existing uncertainty would be more damaging . The DFT could further spin it by saying under the terms of the direct award themselves or TFN will be paying much closer attention to and approving operational matters .

the DFT could be coy and place it under TFN control but without significant funding this would lead to no real world improvement making TFN look like the bad guys .

DFT themselves taking some control leaves it looking embarrassing if they did not manage to resolve the issues of which there are multiple complex ones .

One thing I can see is loads of money being thrown at a short term incentive to work Sundays for drivers which would resolve that long standing issue , some stripping back of timetable enhancements to produce a more reliable timetable so that the government can claim some success going into an election , but with no long term solutions and more short term thinking like that you are only holding off the pain for so long . Some of the things that are needed to make the service better like widening the scope of electrification , negotiating a proper Sunday contract , decision about long term strategic stock plan , resolution of the issues over the castlefield corridor capacity are long term things , the longer those decisions/actions are put off the longer its going to take to reap the benefits .

The problem is that if bringing it under either TfN or DfT control and or still is failing then it would still be a bad thing for the government as they were planning for it to be something better.

Personally I'd or moves to state control at any level then there is going to have to be some extra money spent to improve things beyond the current situation. If that doesn't happen then it would become a real political hot potato.

Let's say that Tories gave it to the TfN (who are mostly backed by Labour local government), if TfN do well then Labour claim that it was due to the local government. Whilst if they do well then they claim the nasty Tories for not providing the funding that they needed.

Either way it may help the Tories in the very short term (possibly only <6 months of oppression, as anything much more than that and if there's been little improvement then it's going to be seen as they haven't been able to fix it), but it's likely to harm them longer term. Even then few are going to be impressed at a General Election by the government (read Tories) having passed the buck (to TfN) and not provided extra funding to fix the mess.

Basically if this is going to be a vote winner then there's going to have to be extra money promised as well as bringing under the control (at some level) as the state. As without extra funding there's going to be little change.

Personally I would suggest something like:
- Leasing extra trains to try and add capacity to a few major cities (probably aimed at electrified lines)
- platform lengthening works to allow longer (say 8 coach train running for the above)
- an infill electrification project to remove the need for so many DMU's

The first should be aimed to bring some benefits as soon as possible. The second would be best timed to cause some works to start in about 6 months time so that if the first doesn't make much difference the politicians can point (very quickly) to the fact that clearly the extra trains will only work their best with the extra works which are just about to start. Then finally have the electrification set to start circa 2 years down the line (sooner if possible) so that again of the first two don't make much difference you've got a nice shiny project to point at and say "look this is coming and clearly this is the thing which is going to make the big difference". Especially if the electrification is likely to take a few years to finish.

By doing so you give yourself until the next General Election to them come up with a plan with what to do next, as you'll always have something just around the corner which is why things haven't improved just yet. By adding in engineering works you can blame them for some of the loss of Sunday services (i.e. plan to cover up the lack of services by then being planned to be run by buses as there's engineering works, rather than it being a failure of those running the trains).

It's what First Great Western did with their Cornish branch lines about 10 years ago when they had a shortage of rolling stock, they effectively closed one and then add they returned that closed another (they didn't actually have energising works so the locals weren't fooled, but it did get them out of a hole and did mean that no one line was ever impacted for very long so they didn't really loose many customers).

Of course that won't be cheap, but if it will cost the DfT a few tens of millions over the course of the next parliament but gains the Tories a few extra seats so that they stay in power then that's an easy win for them.

Of course that's no certainty, as another party may come along and state that they are going to copy that and rule ot out to the East & West Midlands and the South West as well as improve on the offering for the North (say reopen a line closed by Beeching, such as the Ripon reopening which is popular and known about beyond the local area, with some clause or another so that you can kick the can down the road for a few years and not actually do it just yet).

However the above is all far too sensible and it is likely that there will be a desire to make improvements without actually spending anything extra (even though the above may actually reduce the ongoing subsidies and therefore be less costly overall) and so look forward to promises based on hot air and slight of hand (even more than the above).
 

underbank

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Shame that Preston doesn't have north facing bays as it would make the most sense running Barrow and Windermere service there (and not further wasting capacity beyond there) and then connecting with a more reliable 2tph with long 6 car 319/331 units to Hazel Grove/Man Airport in addition to the 1tph TPE Scotland- Man Airport. This would be a more sensible use of capacity through to the Castlefield corridor.

Easier to do it at Lancaster which has 3 north facing bays (inc plat 5 which whilst a through platform in theory acts as a north facing bay for most services). Plenty of London<>Glasgow/Edinburgh and Manchester trains stop at Lancaster so it makes sense to make more of it as a "connection" station. The main difficulty is that a lot of the Northern trains seem to take root at Lancaster, some spending several hours taking up at platform (usually platform 1) between services, so they'd have to re-arrange the timetable to stop them "parking" there and speed up the turnarounds.

With the Barrow and Windermere lines not being electrified, it seems crazy to use long distance DMUs under the wires all the way down to Manchester. Surely it's more logical to use them only on the lines where there are no wires, i.e. use Lancaster as the "hub" for Barrow, Leeds, Morecambe and Windermere. Let people connect to electric Virgin/TPE trains at Oxenholme and Lancaster for onward travel north and south.

Would make diagrams, staffing, route training, maintenance, etc far easier with branchline shuttles rather than direct services to relatively few destinations that mess up the local timetable.

There's every chance the Eden project is coming to Morecambe, so far better train links are going to be essential, and that basically means Lancaster becoming a far more important hub. Direct trains from Morecambe <> Barrow and Windermere would make perfect sense routed via Lancaster - all diesel services. What doesn't make any sense at all it having to change trains twice for those travelling between two major tourist destinations (Windermere and Morecambe) so close together! And, let''s face it, despite potentially millions of visitors, Morecambe is never going to get it's own direct service to Manchester airport!
 
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Meerkat

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Rather than look at ‘easier’ where would Barrow and Windermere Line people rather go, Lancaster or Preston?
 

quantinghome

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Which is another problem with Northern. Why are there so few "self contained branch lines"? You can't possibly have direct trains from every town to every town, so changes/connections are inevitable. Short branches such as Oxenholme<>Windermere and Lancaster<>Morecambe are obvious choices for a two car DMU trundling up and down all day. It's what used to happen, so why and when did that change? Surely longer and more complicated routes just make it harder for train crew training/knowledge, getting stock into the right place after disruptions, reducing knock on effects of delays etc??

I'm not convinced this is a particular big problem, and as far as I'm aware the current arrangements have been in pace for quite a while, certainly a lot longer than the current problems with the service. On the branches you mentioned, most services are indeed a DMU trundling up and down. This is supplemented by an occasional service from further afield. In the case of Windermere the through trains to Manchester take the slot of the Barrow service; in effect you have an hourly service from Manchester to Lancaster which extends to either Barrow or Windermere, both of which are conveniently one hour from Lancaster making timetabling easier. As far as I know the Leeds-Lancaster services have always extended to Morecombe.
 

Bletchleyite

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Rather than look at ‘easier’ where would Barrow and Windermere Line people rather go, Lancaster or Preston?

For Barrow, in my experience they are either making a local journey to Lancaster, or they are connecting to VTWC or TPE there. Very few stay on the train past Lancaster.
 

Lemmy99uk

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For Barrow, in my experience they are either making a local journey to Lancaster, or they are connecting to VTWC or TPE there. Very few stay on the train past Lancaster.

I have to disagree with this.

I have made several trips from Carlisle to Manchester over the last few months, changing at Lancaster to sample the 195s.

The services from Barrow invariably arrive well loaded, with little evidence of mass disembarking. Indeed, it seems to me, that large numbers who have come from the Furness line remain on the train to Manchester.
 

Gems

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I have to disagree with this.

I have made several trips from Carlisle to Manchester over the last few months, changing at Lancaster to sample the 195s.

The services from Barrow invariably arrive well loaded, with little evidence of mass disembarking. Indeed, it seems to me, that large numbers who have come from the Furness line remain on the train to Manchester.

Absolutely correct my friend. Manchester is the primary destination.

Of course the real victims of the timetable change nonsense that saw a majority of Windermere trains not stopping at Lancaster are the passengers from West Yorkshire. I have no figures to back this, but I have noticed a sharp drop in people travelling from Leeds to Windermere for a day out.
Also there is no consideration for connecting times at Carnforth for the Barrow or Leeds services. It really is so very poor.
 

Bletchleyite

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Of course the real victims of the timetable change nonsense that saw a majority of Windermere trains not stopping at Lancaster are the passengers from West Yorkshire. I have no figures to back this, but I have noticed a sharp drop in people travelling from Leeds to Windermere for a day out.

That should get fixed, isn't it pathing related and the only way to squeeze in 90mph DMUs (158s) in a 100mph path until the 195s are available?
 

Gems

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That should get fixed, isn't it pathing related and the only way to squeeze in 90mph DMUs (158s) in a 100mph path until the 195s are available?
I'm not a believer in this. 156s have been used before this change and they stopped. I hope somebody does something in the winter timetable changes, because it is a nonsense.

Like a friend of mine told me though when he moved from the east side to the west. He said. "I have learned to embrace the chaos" say's it all really.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm not a believer in this. 156s have been used before this change and they stopped. I hope somebody does something in the winter timetable changes, because it is a nonsense.

Like a friend of mine told me though when he moved from the east side to the west. He said. "I have learned to embrace the chaos" say's it all really.

It's also a nuisance if you want to go from Manchester to Lancaster avoiding overcrowded TPEs.
 

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The changes to Windermere services were definitely made to accommodate 75mph (not 90) paths. That's the price one pays for deciding to withdraw the established 100mph stock on the route. All services had their times changed, but not all were forced to omit Lancaster. I am sure it will be reversed.
 

quantinghome

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The question to ask is surely, If we were starting tomorrow would we do it like this? The answer has to be no.
Remote branch lines with a limited service, not over used as against commuter routes into major cities with thousands to move back and forwards morning and evening.
The requirement for different stock for these services, multiple depots and part electrification all adds up to a shambles whoever is in charge.
There is no doubt that the present management haven't excelled but they didn't have much of a chance to start with.

I feel you're giving Arriva too much benefit of the doubt. Serco/Abellio had its failings but managed to run a service that was reasonably reliable, far from the current shambles, and catered for growing passenger numbers despite the franchise having no real options to invest in new rolling stock. By contrast Arriva have had the chance to invest to improve services but instead they've got worse. That's not just in areas which have been disrupted by delays to infrastructure or peripheral branch lines. Main commuter routes with no planned timetable changes or infrastructure upgrades have seen massive increases in delays and cancellations.

No doubt there are deeper problems with the northern rail network, but these are long standing and do not explain the worsening performance we've seen since Arriva took over in 2016.
 

Gems

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I feel you're giving Arriva too much benefit of the doubt. Serco/Abellio had its failings but managed to run a service that was reasonably reliable, far from the current shambles, and catered for growing passenger numbers despite the franchise having no real options to invest in new rolling stock. By contrast Arriva have had the chance to invest to improve services but instead they've got worse. That's not just in areas which have been disrupted by delays to infrastructure or peripheral branch lines. Main commuter routes with no planned timetable changes or infrastructure upgrades have seen massive increases in delays and cancellations.

No doubt there are deeper problems with the northern rail network, but these are long standing and do not explain the worsening performance we've seen since Arriva took over in 2016.
The answer to your question is very easy. It's because Abellio didn't try to make changes.
 

Bletchleyite

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The answer to your question is very easy. It's because Abellio didn't try to make changes.

I don't see an issue with changes and improvements. I do see an issue when those changes and improvements are so poorly designed that they are nothing of the sort. Both Northern and LNR did exactly the same thing within a few months of each other, and both have collapsed on their ear and never recovered.
 

underbank

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I'm not convinced this is a particular big problem, and as far as I'm aware the current arrangements have been in pace for quite a while

I thought that lack of compliant DMUs was a problem? With the electrification, surely it makes more sense to have the DMUs trundling up and down mostly non electrified lines rather than doing long runs under the wires from Lancaster/Oxenholme to Manchester that could be better done by electric traction?
 

Bletchleyite

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I thought that lack of compliant DMUs was a problem? With the electrification, surely it makes more sense to have the DMUs trundling up and down mostly non electrified lines rather than doing long runs under the wires from Lancaster/Oxenholme to Manchester that could be better done by electric traction?

In any case, what used to happen isn't a guide to what should happen. Diesel particulates are recognised as being a big problem and some suggest it may be one cause of the massive rise in asthma (I developed it in my late 30s which is quite unusual but may become less unusual). We have to move to diesels only being used where there is no other option to use anything else. There's also the carbon emissions issue.

Had Northern ordered bi-modes this wouldn't have been a great issue, but as they didn't there's really little sense in running DMUs through all the way to Manchester under 40-odd miles (or whatever it is) of wires.
 

cactustwirly

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In any case, what used to happen isn't a guide to what should happen. Diesel particulates are recognised as being a big problem and some suggest it may be one cause of the massive rise in asthma (I developed it in my late 30s which is quite unusual but may become less unusual). We have to move to diesels only being used where there is no other option to use anything else. There's also the carbon emissions issue.

Had Northern ordered bi-modes this wouldn't have been a great issue, but as they didn't there's really little sense in running DMUs through all the way to Manchester under 40-odd miles (or whatever it is) of wires.

But modern diesel engines produce very little particulates, and very little Carbon emissions.
Other emissions are a problem though, such as Nitrogen dioxide.
 

Bletchleyite

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But modern diesel engines produce very little particulates, and very little Carbon emissions.
Other emissions are a problem though, such as Nitrogen dioxide.

And EMUs produce none at the point of use, and with increasing renewables and possibly nuclear that will only reduce.

Even down to producing less brake dust due to the dynamic brake.
 

cactustwirly

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And EMUs produce none at the point of use, and with increasing renewables and possibly nuclear that will only reduce.

Even down to producing less brake dust due to the dynamic brake.

But it isn't financially viable, nor practical to electrify every single line
 

quantinghome

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In any case, what used to happen isn't a guide to what should happen. Diesel particulates are recognised as being a big problem and some suggest it may be one cause of the massive rise in asthma (I developed it in my late 30s which is quite unusual but may become less unusual). We have to move to diesels only being used where there is no other option to use anything else. There's also the carbon emissions issue.
What proportion of diesel emissions come from trains as opposed to road transport? We should phase out from using diesel trains but what is the priority to address health concerns?

Had Northern ordered bi-modes this wouldn't have been a great issue, but as they didn't there's really little sense in running DMUs through all the way to Manchester under 40-odd miles (or whatever it is) of wires.
You have a point and perhaps that can be addressed in the medium term through purchasing bi-modes. However, we are where we are and there are currently loads of examples of diesel running under wires.

If/when the incoming OLR takes charge, what should they do? Split the Manchester to Barrow/Windermere service? Where, Lancaster? A number of issues come to mind including capacity for terminating trains, increase in conflicting moves, risk of missed connections, inefficient use of stock, passenger inconvenience (bearing in mind a lot of passengers from the south lakes are heading to Manchester). Seems a lot of downside for not much upside.
 

Sleeperwaking

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But it isn't financially viable, nor practical to electrify every single line
To be fair to Northern, the original plan was to run EMUs to Windermere as it was due to be electrified (ah, those halcyon days). However, the 40 miles under the wires problem would have remained for Barrow.
 

Bletchleyite

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To be fair to Northern, the original plan was to run EMUs to Windermere as it was due to be electrified (ah, those halcyon days). However, the 40 miles under the wires problem would have remained for Barrow.

As I mentioned above, having Barrow as a planned timed connection at Lancaster from an hourly Airport-Windermere 4-car EMU would work.
 
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