Does the RAIB have any ability to force changes?

eldomtom2 · 21 Oct 2019

While the RAIB explicitly does do not do things like establish liability, do they have any capacity to enforce or require the recommendations they make be carried out?

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Belperpete · 21 Oct 2019

No, the RAIB's role is investigation. It is the ORR that oversees the requirements being carried out.

eldomtom2 · 21 Oct 2019

Is the ORR in any way obligated to carry out the recommendations or can they exercise their own judgment?

DerekC · 21 Oct 2019

eldomtom2 said:
Is the ORR in any way obligated to carry out the recommendations or can they exercise their own judgment?

ORR is supposed to take economics as well as safety into account when enforcing changes, but usually doesn't. However they are generally quite reluctant to enforce anything directly - it's usually done by leaning on the industry members and the standards committee.

Dr Hoo · 22 Oct 2019

The ORR publishes its responses to RAIB recommendations every year, I believe. E.g.

https://orr.gov.uk/rail/health-and-...ecommendations/responses-to-raib-reports-2019

DarloRich · 22 Oct 2019

DerekC said:
ORR is supposed to take economics as well as safety into account when enforcing changes, but usually doesn't. However they are generally quite reluctant to enforce anything directly - it's usually done by leaning on the industry members and the standards committee.

I assume you have never been on the receiving end of an orr enforcement notice then!

Speed43125 · 22 Oct 2019

DarloRich said:
I assume you have never been on the receiving end of an orr enforcement notice then!

I'm sensing an interesting tale here, do tell!

DerekC · 22 Oct 2019

DarloRich said:
I assume you have never been on the receiving end of an orr enforcement notice then!

As it happens, no. They are actually called "Improvement Notices" and there aren't many of them - typically 10 to 15 a year, which isn't very many. And most are not linked to accidents investigated by RAIB. Separately, ORR follows up on and monitors compliance with the recommendations put on industry members by RAIB. Ultimately they can issue an improvement notice for a RAIB recommendation, but it doesn't seem to happen very often.

DarloRich · 22 Oct 2019

DerekC said:
As it happens, no. They are actually called "Improvement Notices" and there aren't many of them - typically 10 to 15 a year, which isn't very many. And most are not linked to accidents investigated by RAIB. Separately, ORR follows up on and monitors compliance with the recommendations put on industry members by RAIB. Ultimately they can issue an improvement notice for a RAIB recommendation, but it doesn't seem to happen very often.

You are quite right they are called Improvement notices. I got the name wrong. Frankly, the name is least important bit when they are looking into you!

bionic · 23 Oct 2019

Have the issues that caused the doors to slam shut extra quick on networkers while sounding no hustle alarm been fixed yet?

Llanigraham · 23 Oct 2019

I can certainly think of one Improvement Notice issued by the RAIB following a fatality that resulted in modifications to my Signal Box and others.

ComUtoR · 23 Oct 2019

bionic said:
Have the issues that caused the doors to slam shut extra quick on networkers while sounding no hustle alarm been fixed yet?

Yes, and the old way of preventing a hustle alarm has been fixed too.

mde · 23 Oct 2019

Dr Hoo said:
The ORR publishes its responses to RAIB recommendations every year, I believe. E.g.

https://orr.gov.uk/rail/health-and-...ecommendations/responses-to-raib-reports-2019

Might be better to link to this version… it seems to take roughly a year for the ORR to proffer their reply.

https://orr.gov.uk/rail/health-and-...ecommendations/responses-to-raib-reports-2018

Muzer · 23 Oct 2019

It's worth bearing in mind that the investigators never had any power. Indeed in the early days the investigation reports were written by the Board of Trade for a particular Privy Council committee, I believe, who then if they felt things weren't progressing fast enough with improvements could pressure parliament to pass a law to that effect, but of course this was quite rare. Nowadays the ORR having much more direct oversight means that the investigation reports are perhaps more powerful than they were, at least in theory.

MP33 · 23 Oct 2019

According to L T C Rolt Red for Danger. The early accident reports focussed on the cause and preventation of accidents. Later they focussed on the effect. Wooden rolling stock, liquid gas lighting and other sources of harm.

bionic · 23 Oct 2019

ComUtoR said:
Yes, and the old way of preventing a hustle alarm has been fixed too.

Excellent. I wonder when we will see the 13.5 second 8 car DOO train safety check implemented on GTR following on from the dragged dog at Elstree...

2HAP · 23 Oct 2019

An example of ORR in action -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Wootton_Bassett_SPAD_incident

The Wootton Bassett SPAD incident refers to a railway incident in the United Kingdom on 7 March 2015, where a steam-hauled charter train passed a signal at danger (SPAD) and subsequently came to a stand across a high-speed mainline junction. Another train, that had right of way, had passed through the junction 44 seconds earlier and no collision occurred nor was any damage done. The incident occurred near Wootton Bassett Junction, Wiltshire.

As a direct result of the incident Network Rail banned the train's operator, West Coast Railway Company (WCRC), from operating trains anywhere on the British railway network. The Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) opened an investigation into the incident, which it called a "dangerous occurrence". The incident was rated the most serious SPAD in the United Kingdom since December 2010. Following improvements made by WCRC, the ban was lifted. A subsequent incident led to a further ban, which was later lifted.

In December 2015, the Office of Rail and Road initiated a prosecution against the driver of the train and WCRC for offences under the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974. The case was heard in June 2016. Both WCRC and the driver of the train pleaded guilty. WCRC was fined £200,000 plus costs. The driver received a sentence of four months' imprisonment, suspended for eighteen months.

In May 2016, the RAIB published a report on the incident, which largely blamed the incident on the train crew tampering with a safety system that would otherwise have safely brought the train to a halt.

adamello · 24 Oct 2019

Recommendations are exactly that,

however if a party has received a recommendation, but it is not acted upon; a court would take a dim view of said party, if, there was a further incident for the same reason

TheEdge · 24 Oct 2019

adamello said:
Recommendations are exactly that,

however if a party has received a recommendation, but it is not acted upon; a court would take a dim view of said party, if, there was a further incident for the same reason

Is a much more real world situation than talking about ORR enforcement.

It would be a foolish party who ignored a RAIB recommendation. In fact look at the final sections of most RAIB report, normally involved parties are falling over themselves to tell the RAIB they've implemented their recommendations before the recommendations were even recommended.

sprunt · 24 Oct 2019

TheEdge said:
In fact look at the final sections of most RAIB report, normally involved parties are falling over themselves to tell the RAIB they've implemented their recommendations before the recommendations were even recommended.

Is it fair to assume that the parties will know about the recommendations before the report is published?

adamello · 24 Oct 2019

sprunt said:
Is it fair to assume that the parties will know about the recommendations before the report is published?

(speaking from the Maritime Sector) yes - they will have recommendation meetings with the *AIB ahead of publication of the reports

ComUtoR · 24 Oct 2019

adamello said:
however if a party has received a recommendation, but it is not acted upon; a court would take a dim view of said party, if, there was a further incident for the same reason

And yet; you still read RAIB report where previous recommendations were not implemented. Or where a previous incident is referenced where the current one could have been prevented if a recommendation was implemented.

Does the RAIB have any ability to force changes?

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