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Merseytravel Walrus Card to be scrapped

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Fawkes Cat

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Given that (as I understand it) most journeys in London are now done using contactless cards rather than Oyster, it doesn't feel very cutting-edge to be inventing a new not-quite Oyster card. Shouldn't Merseytravel be going straight to contactless? If there was concern about people without bank accounts not having access to a debit card or credit card, they could be encouraged to buy prepaid cards - there could even be a Merseytravel branded one for people who would feel better with something that looked like a bus pass.
 

geoffk

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Can I still buy a Merseyside Saveaway ticket at any National Rail station? In the past, I've got one at Wigan.
 

gray1404

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I hope that in light of this news (or rather scrapping of the existing Smart card) Merseyrail will revert back to issuing Saveaways on ticketing stock again.

What a total waste of time even introducing a Metro Card. They should go straight to Contactless.
 

kieron

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I don't think there's any way for a bus driver to tell if you have a day ticket loaded on your contactless card. Contactless works well in London for pay as you go travel, but that's something they'd "ultimately" like to do, rather than anything they expect to happen in the foreseeable future.
 

Fawkes Cat

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I don't think there's any way for a bus driver to tell if you have a day ticket loaded on your contactless card

Would they need to? I'd assume something like Oyster capping done in the back office at the end of the day - so if there's something available that is cheaper than paying a whole load of single fares (Saveaways and Solos in the current Merseytravel terms) then your charge for the day is capped at that. And I don't see why the back office couldn't be told which debit cards were held by pensioners or held by people who have season tickets.
 

JBuchananGB

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I fear I may have to acquire a a Walrus card tomorrow. I will take my granddaughter on a journey in Merseyside involving both train and bus so she will need a young person’s Saveaway. I will travel with paper ticket on train with Senior Railcard, and use my Lancashire issued bus pass. If I have to cough up £1 for a Walrus card, her fares will cost more than mine!
 

yorkie

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Can I still buy a Merseyside Saveaway ticket at any National Rail station? In the past, I've got one at Wigan.
You can get them at any National Rail station except Merseyrail were (IMO illegally) instructed not to issue them on paper.

They owe everyone the cost of the Walrus card IMO. I'll talk to a solicitor about this and see if a class action lawsuit might be feasible. They're probably going to get away with it on the basis that the values are small enough to be not worth the bother though.

I was sold a Walrus card in a manner that I am pretty sure was illegal at Liverpool South Parkway, which I still have as evidence of the wrongdoing.
 

maniacmartin

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I'm pretty sure 'class action' is an american concept not applicable in our legal system
 

M28361M

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Mayor Steve Rotheram on Twitter has stated that Walrus cards will continue to work and will be useable in the same way as MetroCards. https://twitter.com/MetroMayorSteve/status/1187035982425669632

Walrus will be phased out and replaced with the new MetroCard - as well as the ability to buy tickets online.

If you currently have a Walrus, you'll be able to keep it and use it in the same way as a MetroCard - including with the online portal, which launches in the new year.
 
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Fawkes Cat

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Tetchytyke

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So he's replacing an ITSO smartcard with a stupid name with an identical ITSO smartcard that is named after his job title.

Seems a good use of tax money.
 

BluePenguin

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If they are scrapping the Walrus card will this mean that I can return mine to get my £1 deposit back?
 

Starmill

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I'm pretty sure 'class action' is an american concept not applicable in our legal system
So-called 'opt out' collective action cases can be litigated in the UK since the 2015 modification to the Competition Act 1998.

The Competition Appeal Tribunal are yet to issue any Collective Proceedings Orders on this basis. Merricks v Mastercard is instructive. Mastercard now appeals to the Supreme Court.
 
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gray1404

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It's about time Merseyrail had some legal action taken against them. They are more then happy to use bylaws against their passengers but seem to forget the bylaws apply to them and their staff too.
 

kieron

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I'd assume something like Oyster capping done in the back office at the end of the day - so if there's something available that is cheaper than paying a whole load of single fares (Saveaways and Solos in the current Merseytravel terms) then your charge for the day is capped at that.
If Merseytravel had a system which offered pay as you go travel with features like that, perhaps they could manage without a separate smart card. With a use case of "present a pre-paid ticket or pass, or pay as you board", I think the priority is on having something the driver can interrogate quickly and reliably.
 

Starmill

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Everyone saying 'they should go straight to contactless' has rather missed the point. They are clearly sticking with smartcards, but changing the name.

Since contactless cards can't be written to, even if Merseytravel spent millions of pounds on developing a PAYG system, every bus company that offers services in Merseyside would have to sign a contract with Merseytravel to accept this new method of payment. No doubt most buses would require new ticket machines to be compatible with it, and each individual bus company would see a big shift away from their current operator specific tickets towards contactless PAYG, losing them money. The bus companies are under no obligation whatsoever to enter into such a relationship with Merseytravel, and almost certainly refuse to do so unless all of their costs were met, and they were compensated for all lost revenue in the future from taxpayers money.

In short, unless franchise contracts for bus travel which both specify this kind of PAYG and include the necessary millions of pounds of public money to implement it are to be effected throughout Merseyside this is a bit of a pipe dream - and fairly irrelevant to this thread.

Each train operator would also likely require compensation through their franchise agreement, and there would need to be arrangements put in place for Mersey Ferries - these may be expensive but are probably rather more doable than negotiating with the bus companies. It has also been made clear by the Mayor that this is his aspiration. But it has been an aspiration in many places, for many years, with little or no change.
 
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shakey1961

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I feel the biggest change for the Metro card will be the ability to buy tickets online. At the introduction of the Walrus card, there was no way to buy tickets from stations which I felt was idiotic. I also hope this new card will be more reliable - many times I used my Walrus card only to find it didn't operate the barriers so I had to show my receipt, which was pointless as it as no better than buying a paper ticket.

Let's hope it works as good as an Oyster card.

Still, a Metro card sounds much better than a Walrus card and it looks so much better.
 

Djgr

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I feel the biggest change for the Metro card will be the ability to buy tickets online. At the introduction of the Walrus card, there was no way to buy tickets from stations which I felt was idiotic. I also hope this new card will be more reliable - many times I used my Walrus card only to find it didn't operate the barriers so I had to show my receipt, which was pointless as it as no better than buying a paper ticket.

Let's hope it works as good as an Oyster card.

Still, a Metro card sounds much better than a Walrus card and it looks so much better.
I liked the name. Obviously it assumes that one has basic musical knowledge!
 

Camden

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Mayor Steve Rotheram on Twitter has stated that Walrus cards will continue to work and will be useable in the same way as MetroCards. https://twitter.com/MetroMayorSteve/status/1187035982425669632
I would be surprised if he hasn't been misinformed on this. My understanding is that the reason the current card is so limited is because they are cheap as chips and unable to hold enough data. That being the case, it's hard to imagine how they could be made compatible with a better/proper/real system.

Also, if that was the case and it was so straightforward, there would be no reason for the rebrand. Politically, economically and commercially it would have been much less hassle for much higher gain to just relaunch the Walrus to much fanfare.

I think people being offered a swap is much more likely.
 

Camden

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So he's replacing an ITSO smartcard with a stupid name with an identical ITSO smartcard that is named after his job title.

Seems a good use of tax money.
We'll see what it's replaced with in due course. The current card is useless.

His title isn't Metro Mayor, that's just a tag which has stuck. He's just the Mayor (of the Liverpool City Region), and I really don't think he's that egocentric. I think the name MetroCard is fine. It works, it's easy to say, it's easy for tourists and visitors to grasp the meaning of. Travel in the metro area = MetroCard. Better than Walrus. "Oyster" only works because it's London.
 

notlob.divad

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I would be surprised if he hasn't been misinformed on this. My understanding is that the reason the current card is so limited is because they are cheap as chips and unable to hold enough data. That being the case, it's hard to imagine how they could be made compatible with a better/proper/real system.

Also, if that was the case and it was so straightforward, there would be no reason for the rebrand. Politically, economically and commercially it would have been much less hassle for much higher gain to just relaunch the Walrus to much fanfare.

I think people being offered a swap is much more likely.
Is it possible that the new branded cards will have a more powerful chip, but won't be using its ability anymore than the Walrus cards until a full pay as you go system is up and running. At which pont the Walrus cards will be phased out. I am surprised they are going down the new card route, as these days you could do it all and more with an App for a smart phone.

Personally I quite like my Walrus card when I need to use it, if they are add someway of buying a ticket for it without having to go to a specific location (which may either be closed, or not have a clue what you are asking for*) then it will be perfectly fine for me.
*Then again, I asked an Arriva bus driver for one of there own Liverpool plus tickets, (now I believe a Merseyside Plus ticket) and he didn't have a clue what I was asking for despite having the webpage advertising the ticket open on my phone.
 

M28361M

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My understanding is that the reason the current card is so limited is because they are cheap as chips and unable to hold enough data.

I'm surprised to hear this - maybe I'm naive, but I assumed that one ITSO card was just like another and they were all the same technology. Is Walrus non-compliant with the ITSO standard in some way?

I can't help but think that some sort of national smartcard, which can load any product, would be better than every TOC, bus company and PTE having their own branded version. Someone who moves around the country a lot is going to have a wallet full of cards.

I've just been reminded of this story in the Echo back in January, which claimed that every Merseyrail station was going to get smartcard validators "by the end of the year" - well, we're two months away from the end of the year, and there is no sign of them anywhere. Presumably this will wait for the MetroCard rollout too. https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/big-change-coming-your-merseyrail-15624941

(As an aside, I do know of someone who claims to have persuaded a very reluctant Merseyrail booking office clerk to load a Saveaway onto a Stagecoach South West Trains ITSO card - the resulting card apparently worked on every bus she boarded, but would not operate any station ticket barriers.)
 

Joe Paxton

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(As an aside, I do know of someone who claims to have persuaded a very reluctant Merseyrail booking office clerk to load a Saveaway onto a Stagecoach South West Trains ITSO card - the resulting card apparently worked on every bus she boarded, but would not operate any station ticket barriers.)

Very interesting... though in this case the booking office clerk's extreme reluctance seems very well justified!
 

Camden

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I'm surprised to hear this - maybe I'm naive, but I assumed that one ITSO card was just like another
They're certainly supposed to be, but the fact that PAYG was meant to be in place by 2013 and the example you quotes involving the SWT card, I'm beleiving the Walrus card is not quite.
I've just been reminded of this story in the Echo back in January, which claimed that every Merseyrail station was going to get smartcard validators "by the end of the year" - well, we're two months away from the end of the year, and there is no sign of them anywhere. Presumably this will wait for the MetroCard rollout too. https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/big-change-coming-your-merseyrail-15624941
Delays aside, I expect this is one and the same project rather than anything additional being introduced.

GMPTE for GM managed to get their replacement card system up and running, including with proper radial zoning and recently with contactless cards, pretty swiftly. Merseytravel have somehow managed to go from 5 years ahead of the pack to just starting over, but here's hoping they're on it now.
 
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