Proposed abandonment of Smart Motorways

Bletchleyite · 29 Oct 2019

Bald Rick said:
My understanding (having spoken to some people from Highways England) is that it is the variable hardshoulder bit that is abandoned, and it becomes permanent all lane running, ie no hard shoulder. This is all subject to the review of course.

AM9 said:
Which would make a breakdown exciting. I wonder what that will do to accident stats.

Probably not very much. Most cars stopped on the shoulder have not broken down to the point of being unable to move, they've stopped because they are overheating, or to inspect a possibly dangerous load or whatever. Those ones can just as easily continue to the next layby, and are far less likely to be rear-ended if they do. Often those which have died completely (e.g. due to a multi-tyre blowout, a seized engine/gearbox or a complete loss of power including power steering) can't even make it as far as the hard shoulder anyway.

It's not like there aren't loads of 70mph hard-shoulder-less A-roads about which don't even have the CCTV monitoring nor the ability to close a lane. If these had a very poor safety record they'd soon get 40/50 limits slapped on them, but they don't.

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Meerkat · 29 Oct 2019

Connected road pricing is a huge undertaking.
GPS Signal - needs to be indisputably accurate (you can buy blockers...)
Reliable data transfer links covering the whole country.
Tamper proofing- the box went nowhere but.....
Visible, understandable pricing (see that fuss over rail tickets being too complicated ....imagine trying to explain to drivers hugely complicated geographic and time based road pricing)
A vast, trustworthy, processing centre, in constant communication with millions of moving vehicles, and available to be interrogated by drivers.
A reliable database matching cars to billing names and contact details.

and this is before the rather dark Big Brother implications.

PeterC · 29 Oct 2019

Joining a smart motorway with hard shoulder running for the first time it did seem confusing as the slip road was leading me onto the hard shoulder and I then had the additional decision to look for a gap on my left or to look for signs to see if I was OK where I was. It doesn't seem much but on a road that you don't know while trying to join a traffic that is doing 70mph it does add a certain frisson of danger. (Route knowledge makes a difference on the roads too)

All lane running does seem to keep things moving at 40 or 50 rather than anything between 70 and a dead stop. Using the M25 in the evening peak I can see supurb petrol consumption as I end up cruising at the most economical speed. I'd be more comforable with a few more refuges though.

edwin_m · 29 Oct 2019

PeterC said:
It doesn't seem much but on a road that you don't know while trying to join a traffic that is doing 70mph it does add a certain frisson of danger.

I believe they can only open the hard shoulder as a lane if the signs are limiting speed to 60mph or less.

The annoying thing for me is the "hard shoulder for Junction xx only" mode. When they see that sign lit up, most of the hard shoulder drivers need to pull out into the next lane, when lane changes have a big effect on capacity when the road is busy (and if it wasn't the hard shoulder wouldn't be open). Had to chuckle the other day when I passed a VMS saying "Congestion stay in lane" just after a sign telling people to get in lane for the turnoff from the M4 to the M5.

Iskra · 29 Oct 2019

PeterC said:
Joining a smart motorway with hard shoulder running for the first time it did seem confusing as the slip road was leading me onto the hard shoulder and I then had the additional decision to look for a gap on my left or to look for signs to see if I was OK where I was. It doesn't seem much but on a road that you don't know while trying to join a traffic that is doing 70mph it does add a certain frisson of danger. (Route knowledge makes a difference on the roads too)

All lane running does seem to keep things moving at 40 or 50 rather than anything between 70 and a dead stop. Using the M25 in the evening peak I can see supurb petrol consumption as I end up cruising at the most economical speed. I'd be more comforable with a few more refuges though.

I agree that they can cause information overload. A driver has enough to do on a busy motorway (particularly when joining) without watching signs that seem deliberately designed to catch you out ie: 40 40 40 40 50 40 40 40.

Having 4 lanes in action on the M62 is a brilliant thing though, however it can frustrating because some evening peaks you can't run in the hard shoulder (for no reason) and then sometimes you get situations where you're driving on an empty motorway at 9pm at night and you're restricted to 50 for no reason whatsoever.

I love the 'hard shoulder for junction x only' (when it's my jct) as you get a nice clear lane to get you off. However, on the M62 at Jct 27 a lot of drivers have clocked onto this and now undertake in that lane and pull back onto the motorway at the junction at the last minute, which can be dangerous.

Busaholic · 29 Oct 2019

The smart motorway should be renamed the dumb motorway. The reasons for having a hard shoulder haven't altered since the M1 opened, and their abolition, either full or part time, is equivalent to the railway deciding to abandon key elements of signalling safety on the grounds that they hadn't often proved necessary in practice. I had a Peugeot that a couple of times cut out while I was doing 70 mph in the fast lane, but thankfully I managed to steer it onto the hard shoulder without incident. Needless to say, I disposed of the car after the second time, but I felt lucky not to be disposed of myself. You never forget such things.

Greybeard33 · 29 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Probably not very much. Most cars stopped on the shoulder have not broken down to the point of being unable to move, they've stopped because they are overheating, or to inspect a possibly dangerous load or whatever. Those ones can just as easily continue to the next layby, and are far less likely to be rear-ended if they do. Often those which have died completely (e.g. due to a multi-tyre blowout, a seized engine/gearbox or a complete loss of power including power steering) can't even make it as far as the hard shoulder anyway.

It's not like there aren't loads of 70mph hard-shoulder-less A-roads about which don't even have the CCTV monitoring nor the ability to close a lane. If these had a very poor safety record they'd soon get 40/50 limits slapped on them, but they don't.

In case of a tyre blowout or engine failure it is usually possible to pull over to the shoulder, but it may well not be possible to continue another mile to the next refuge layby. There have been some nasty accidents on all lane running smart motorways where a broken down vehicle stopped in the left lane has been hit at 70mph. These would not have happened if there had been a shoulder. In such cases safety is dependent on a human control room operator noticing the incident on CCTV and turning on the signs to reduce the speed limit and close the blocked lane. There is a window of vulnerability before this happens.

Very few 70mph A roads have 4 lane carriageways, and they usually have soft shoulders where it is possible to get at least partly off the carriageway in an emergency. This is not the case on a smart motorway.

IMO 70mph all lane running is unacceptably dangerous. These motorways should have the hard shoulder reinstated or at least have a permanent 50 or 60mph limit imposed. That might encourage more motorists to switch to rail travel!

AndrewE · 29 Oct 2019

edwin_m said:
I believe they can only open the hard shoulder as a lane if the signs are limiting speed to 60mph or less.

Not true, I'm afraid. I observed/experienced 4 lanes through Cheshire at 70mph in both directions this last weekend. No hard shoulder, fewer signs and emergency lay-bys very infrequent compared with the first "Smart motorways."

Greybeard33 · 29 Oct 2019

AndrewE said:
Not true, I'm afraid. I observed/experienced 4 lanes through Cheshire at 70mph in both directions this last weekend. No hard shoulder, fewer signs and emergency lay-bys very infrequent compared with the first "Smart motorways."

I believe @edwin_m was referring to the "dynamic hard shoulder" smart motorways, where the hard shoulder only becomes a running lane at busy times. This is the variety that Highways England now says the poor motorist finds too confusing.

The M6 in Cheshire is the newer "all lane running" variety of smart motorway, where the hard shoulder has been converted to a full time running lane at 70mph.

Bald Rick · 29 Oct 2019

Greybeard33 said:
I believe @edwin_m was referring to the "dynamic hard shoulder" smart motorways, where the hard shoulder only becomes a running lane at busy times. This is the variety that Highways England now says the poor motorist finds too confusing.

The M6 in Cheshire is the newer "all lane running" variety of smart motorway, where the hard shoulder has been converted to a full time running lane at 70mph.

Correct. All lane running (ie no hardshoulder) can be, and usually is, NSL.

Variable hard shoulder motorways can only have the hardhoulder activated as a driving lane when the speed is 60mph or less. (Under normal circumstances).

AndrewE · 29 Oct 2019

Bald Rick said:
Correct. All lane running (ie no hardshoulder) can be, and usually is, NSL.

Variable hard shoulder motorways can only have the hardhoulder activated as a driving lane when the speed is 60mph or less. (Under normal circumstances).

what is NSL?

Cowley · 29 Oct 2019

AndrewE said:
what is NSL?

National Speed Limit.

Ianno87 · 29 Oct 2019

Doing some Motorway driving in Ireland recently...they seem to have vome up with a simpler, much less 'tech' and less disruptive solution....

Just sign busy motorways slower and be done with it! e.g. the M50 Dublin Ring Road is just signed at 100kph, rather than the general 120kph Motorway speed limit.

From experience driving in Milton Keynes, one particular pinch point was 'solved' during inprovement works through imposition of a temporary lower limit.

MotCO · 29 Oct 2019

National Speed Limit

AndrewE · 29 Oct 2019

MotCO said:
National Speed Limit

Thanks.
I don't understand how some motorists cannot understand that red "X"s over a lane mean it is closed, i.e. GET OUT OF IT. It means that something is stationary in the lane not far ahead of you.
If the lane is (i.e. used to be) the hard shoulder then it's even easier to understand.

PG · 29 Oct 2019

Busaholic said:
The smart motorway should be renamed the dumb motorway. The reasons for having a hard shoulder haven't altered since the M1 opened, and their abolition, either full or part time, is equivalent to the railway deciding to abandon key elements of signalling safety on the grounds that they hadn't often proved necessary in practice.

Exactly this!
The driving force (excuse pun) behind smart motorways is money... what price were the lives of those people who have died worth?

Ianno87 · 29 Oct 2019

Greybeard33 said:
I believe @edwin_m was referring to the "dynamic hard shoulder" smart motorways, where the hard shoulder only becomes a running lane at busy times. This is the variety that Highways England now says the poor motorist finds too confusing.

The number of times the hard shoulder is in normal operation, but only one or two vehicles are actually in it as everyone thinks "oh no, that's the hard shoulder, I'm not allowed!"

eMeS · 29 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Probably not very much. Most cars stopped on the shoulder have not broken down to the point of being unable to move, ....

From what I've heard, I'm not sure what the plans are.
I'm expecting that after the current crop of "Smart" motorway creation is complete, that no news ones will be started for a period. I'd be very surprised if work is put in hand to turn the motorways near me (M1, Milton Keynes) back to what they were some years ago - but the workforce will need some form of occupation....

Bald Rick · 30 Oct 2019

AndrewE said:
Thanks.
I don't understand how some motorists cannot understand that red "X"s over a lane mean it is closed, i.e. GET OUT OF IT. It means that something is stationary in the lane not far ahead of you.
If the lane is (i.e. used to be) the hard shoulder then it's even easier to understand.

Agreed. Similar how hard is it to understand that if there is a speed limit sign lit up above the hard shoulder, and a VMS sign saying ‘use hardhsoulder’, that it is open for traffic. I am regularly the only vehicle in the lane for as far as you can see, whilst lanes 1-3 (or 2-4 if you prefer) are nose to,tail at 40mph.

Bletchleyite · 30 Oct 2019

Ianno87 said:
From experience driving in Milton Keynes, one particular pinch point was 'solved' during inprovement works through imposition of a temporary lower limit.

Most of the grid system is still NSL (it would be politically unpalatable to do otherwise) but a few bits have been reduced for various reasons, in most cases due to the configuration of specific junctions, though also in one specific case (and this winds me up[1]) because of parents unable to control their children to prevent them running across grid roads on the level where bridges and underpasses exist - the same sort of issue as kids running across railway lines, really.

[1] If MK was in the Netherlands cycling and walking on grid roads would be strictly prohibited by law; that system works because of its full segregation and MK is very like it - it works if you play the game correctly, not if you don't.

Bletchleyite · 30 Oct 2019

Greybeard33 said:
In case of a tyre blowout or engine failure it is usually possible to pull over to the shoulder, but it may well not be possible to continue another mile to the next refuge layby. There have been some nasty accidents on all lane running smart motorways where a broken down vehicle stopped in the left lane has been hit at 70mph. These would not have happened if there had been a shoulder. In such cases safety is dependent on a human control room operator noticing the incident on CCTV and turning on the signs to reduce the speed limit and close the blocked lane. There is a window of vulnerability before this happens.

Very few 70mph A roads have 4 lane carriageways, and they usually have soft shoulders where it is possible to get at least partly off the carriageway in an emergency. This is not the case on a smart motorway.

There are not always soft shoulders on A roads. I think the thing about an A road is that people expect that someone might be stopped in the nearside lane. This would also be true of a "permanent" smart motorway.

My suspicion, though I've not seen the stats, is that the ambiguity of part time hard shoulder running poses a specific risk[1], but with permanent all-lane running that ambiguity doesn't exist, and so I reckon it might well be the case that the risk posed by a vehicle stopping in the running lane (very rare these days) is outweighed by the risk to a vehicle on the hard shoulder by an inattentive driver hitting them - and so all-lane running isn't actually that dangerous.

Variable speed limits on the other hand demonstrably work[2] by preventing the "brake light cascade" effect causing congestion. Some of the M25 has this alone (with a conventional hard shoulder) and I suspect this will remain and be rolled out further. I'd imagine, now the cameras are on when NSL is in place, these also reduce accidents and the severity of accidents by keeping most traffic to 70mph or thereabouts.

[1] A few risks, actually. One that people might think it's not in use as a hard shoulder when it is and drive in it and hit someone, or vice versa. But also the risks posed by people choosing not to use it and thus other people "undertaking" them when not expected.

[2] I was commuting by road from MK to Slough for a year or so, and during this time I experienced the M25 without it, during roadworks and with it. It was noticeably better in the morning peak with it than without.

PeterC · 30 Oct 2019

AndrewE said:
Thanks.
I don't understand how some motorists cannot understand that red "X"s over a lane mean it is closed, i.e. GET OUT OF IT. It means that something is stationary in the lane not far ahead of you.
If the lane is (i.e. used to be) the hard shoulder then it's even easier to understand.

It isn't intuitive for everybody, just watch how many try to use Underground gates that are showing a red X.

Having said that most motorists ignoring the signs are just taking the **** but there will be the odd exception.

Geezertronic · 30 Oct 2019

They really need to put the red X above the shoulder lane when they don't want people to use it because the amount of vehicles I see driving on the shoulder when it isn't supposed to be used is considerable. It's ok saying the shoulder should only be used when the matrix sign displays a speed, but the red X needs to reinforce the fact that people need to move out of the lane when not in use

Bletchleyite · 30 Oct 2019

Geezertronic said:
They really need to put the red X above the shoulder lane when they don't want people to use it because the amount of vehicles I see driving on the shoulder when it isn't supposed to be used is considerable. It's ok saying the shoulder should only be used when the matrix sign displays a speed, but the red X needs to reinforce the fact that people need to move out of the lane when not in use

It is on some but not others. On the ones where it isn't the text signs say "hard shoulder for emergency use only".

The_Train · 30 Oct 2019

Having sat in the traffic caused by the works through the Midlands as they developed the 'smart' motorway I was very eager to get onto it when it finally opened as I'd hoped it would mean the end of the bottleneck around the M6/M5 junction. To say it was disappointing to find myself sat in the same jams is an understatement. I can (sort of) see the logic in reducing the speed limit to try and stop queues developing but surely for this to work the reduction in speed limit should be happening miles and miles away, not a few hundred yards from where the queue is building as seems to be the case. For example in the West Midlands the queues seem to start just after J11 (heading southbound) and I think the smart aspect of the motorway begins around J12 so not enough time to slow people down before they hit the jam. Surely if the smart motorway began around J15/16 then this would slow the number of vehicles arrovomg at the bottleneck at the same time?

I don't need to go into the removal of the hard shoulder as I think we can all see how dangerous that is. Refuge laybys only help those who are 'lucky' to be able to reach one if their car fails or who are wise enough to understand there is an issue developing on their car and pull off at the next available layby (how many of us just think 'I'm sure that rattle will be nothing' or 'that smoke must be off another car' etc and just carry on with nothing more than hope to get us where we are going?).

The reality of the situation is that it's just another example of the British way in that it's better to try and adapt archaic infrastructure that was built at a time when usage was a lot less, than actually building new, modern infrastructure that can handle the demands of the modern world. Sound familiar?

Bletchleyite · 30 Oct 2019

The_Train said:
Surely if the smart motorway began around J15/16 then this would slow the number of vehicles arrovomg at the bottleneck at the same time?

Up until this announcement the long term view was for conversion of the vast majority of the network, wasn't it? It just takes time.

Barn · 30 Oct 2019

It's dismaying to witness just how poorly observed the "red X" signs are. At best, drivers seem to think they can continue in that lane but keep an eye out for the problem.

Part of me wonders if they should be changed to illuminated no entry signs. That is a much better understood symbol.

Bletchleyite · 30 Oct 2019

I thought they'd started enforcing red Xs by turning the cameras on in that lane but set to 0mph? Have they not?

AndrewE · 30 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I thought they'd started enforcing red Xs by turning the cameras on in that lane but set to 0mph? Have they not?

Good idea if they have. Something we haven't commented on yet is that besides the red X, they also have red wig-wags going. They are mandatory...
@The_Train: I have experienced the congestion control southbound approaching Brum, and I was quite impressed by its effectiveness.

The_Train · 30 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Up until this announcement the long term view was for conversion of the vast majority of the network, wasn't it? It just takes time.

I wasn't aware of that to be honest, I just thought certain 'hot spots' had been highlighted for this project. If it was to be the entire network then that just takes me to the final point I made above regarding a British desire to try and adapt archaic infrastructure

Proposed abandonment of Smart Motorways

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