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Owning a vintage bus/coach

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Martin2012

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I'd be interested to know what the process is if you want to preserved bus or coach.

Obviously I'm guessing there are practical considerations such as storage of the vehicle but are there procedures that need to be followed in terms of insurance and registering the vehicle? Also is one permitted to own a vehicle before they have gained a licence (eg allowing others to drive it)?

Have also been looking at coaches listed for sale on Ebay and have been noticing some are cheaper than others? Is it (like with most other things) the lower the price the more hidden costs there are eg insurance/MOT/Taxing/Maintenance?
 
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JModulo

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Buying the bus is the easy bit... then come the issues like storage, upkeep (maintenance, insurance, tax (it not old enough)). I own 4 vehicles however currently don't hold my PCV nor car license, things I've not got round to doing yet.
 

Robertj21a

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A friend who has preserved a bus said that he only paid about £5,000 for it (many years ago) and it has cost him about £5,000 every year since.
 

pdeaves

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If I understand correctly, you can drive a coach with certain types of licence without needing a PSV licence, provided that you do not drive it for hire or reward (so could drive it as your own personal transport).
 

John Webb

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There are a number of bus preservation societies and museums around. I suggest a visit to one or two of these might be helpful in understanding the various problems of storage, preservation and restoration, driving licences needed etc..
 

jp4712

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As an owner of two classic buses, I hope I have a contribution here...

As has already been said, buying is the easy part! Storage is the killer. Outside storage is both easier to find and cheaper than inside storage; but it's a false economy. Buses kept outside deteriorate much faster than a car because of the way they're built, with lots of seams and gaps for moisture to get into, with big holes such as gaps under entrance doors (or for a rear loader, no door at all). Most indoor storage is in farm barns, check that there's a concrete floor, lighting and power. Cost varies hugely around the country. London & South East is dearest but expect to pay at least £75 a month no matter where you are. Most people are bright enough to check that the barn door is high enough to take a bus, but what about sharp bends and low trees on the lane to get there?

Cost of buying varies enormously. This is for several reasons:

1. There's always a premium for London buses.
2. There's a premium for buses that look the part for wedding hire and maybe have a Class VI ticket.
3. The market gets skewed by buses offered for sale by commercial companies as bars, conversions etc or sold by companies who bought a bus for a commercial purpose, changed their minds but still want top dollar.
4. It's not like Glass's Guide: there's not really a very well-defined 'going rate' for a model/year because the volume of sales is so low. Putting the commercial guys aside, people buy the bus that appeals to them because they went to school on it etc; and in those circumstances the price simply depends on how badly they want it.
5. And yes, a rot box will cost less than a fully-restored bus.

If you're handy then you can do a lot of the restoration yourself; but everything takes far longer than you expect, as I found out this weekend when stripping paint from the interior of one of mine. The phrase 'two steps forward, one step back' could have been created for bus restoration. For bought-in services expect to pay £50-75 per hour for labour, plus materials. For work you're doing yourself, a mate/assistant is virtually essential: partly because so many components are too heavy to lift compared to a car, and partly - and I don't want to exaggerate - it can be dangerous and you need someone to watch and be available to summon assistance.

Spare parts availability varies hugely depending on what you buy. Early Dennis Dart SLF? Not too bad, and lots of them in the Barnsley scrapyards. Crossley DD42? Get saving up to have things re-engineered or made from scratch. Ebay and bus preservation Facebook groups are your friends but your network of contacts is indispensible.

Pretty much all buses had a service and maintenance manual (can normally get on Ebay) but they're not for the beginner, forget the Haynes approach. My friends and I used to joke that the manual's instructions to remove a Leyland PD1 engine went something like this:

"1. Turn off engine, apply handbrake, disconnect battery terminals.
2. Remove engine.
3. Installation of the engine is the reverse of the above procedure."

A joke description, but only just! So either learn to be handy or pay a lot for restoration and maintenance.

Take out a subscription to Bus & Coach Preservation magazine, partly for hints & tips and partly for the classified ads.

For driving, if the vehicle is over 40 years old then you can tax and drive on a car licence so long as you don't carry more than 8 passengers. If the bus is less than 40 years old or you want to carry more than 8 people, you need a PCV licence (you don't need the additional CPC if it's not for hire & reward).

Insurance from specialist providers is surprisingly cheap, this is because the specialists know that preserved buses don't do many miles and are treated gently on the road. For two buses I'm paying £350 a year but it will vary depending on age, location, how many years you've had a licence etc. Don't bother with a general car insurance company.

To answer your question you can own a bus and insure others to drive it. Registering and insuring it works just like it does with a car, you get a V5. Buses over 40 years old are exempt from MOT class V and tax is free (historic vehicle) but many if not most owners including me submit to an MOT test anyway, for peace of mind.

If all the above seems intimidating, it is. Owning a bus isn't a cheap hobby and for every bus that you see at a rally, there was another stalled project that ended at the scrap merchant. The Bristol RE I'm restoring now cost me £2,000 to buy; but so far restoration has already cost more than that (the radiator rebuild alone cost £1,100) and next year I'm planning to have the seats reupholstered at a cost of about £4,000 (and that's even after I bought a roll of moquette for £500).

But once you're done, there's no better feeling than driving down the road with the windows open, getting waves from kids, trundling along the A roads.

Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions or have your eye on a bus.

My fleet, December 2018 by Paul Williams, on Flickr
 

83G/84D

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Jp4712 - thanks for your posting. I have thought long and hard about purchasing a vintage bus for a few years but some of the issues you raise have meant it hasn’t worked out. Maybe in the future I will but don’t want to go into it halfhearted so your advice is very helpful.
 

pdeaves

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Naturally, if you 'just want a nice bus' and don't care if it moves (i.e. garden ornament), the cost and effort will be very different to that required if you want something that you could theoretically use or hire out.
 

High Dyke

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I can echo the comments made by Jp4712. I've been trying to put some money into savings. I know the cost of restoring the vehicle I have a share in won't be cheap. The vehicle is mechanically sound, but does need major remedial work to the internal flooring. A previous storage location saw the vehicle vandalised, but luckily it had moved to new storage when the yard it had been in suffered an arson attack.

Don't be put off though. Many years ago a mate of mine purchased a London Transport RT and, aside from helping him restore it, we had the satisfaction of driving it around to see the reaction of passers-by. I'm still involved in vintage vehicles and yes it does make you feel proud to own and operate a piece of history.

As regards licensing I do have a PSV (old school) licence, but ironically I'm not allowed to drive, for hire or reward, any bus with less than 16 seats. That caused fun with a previous employer when they introduced 12-seater minibuses. Obviously I wouldn't be driving my vehicle in such circumstances so the restrictions don't apply. However, that does digress from this discussion slightly. Check out information on the internet @ https://www.gov.uk/
 

jp4712

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@jp4712 just out of interest, what was the failed project? Why did it fail - too expensive or other reasons?
I wasn’t referring to any specific failed project, I was trying to say that in general the failure rate is very high - perhaps 50% of buses that are sold for preservation don’t last ten years. This is entirely unsubstantiated but the failure rate really is terrifying, I have many photos of buses entering preservation that end up scrapped, converted to a caravan etc. I hope no one regards either of my two vehicles illustrated as ‘failed’! ;)
 

mjc

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@Martin2012 I'm no expert on bus preservation but am an interested observer. As others have indicated it’s a big commitment to take on, with purchase cost being the least of your worries. I’d suggest you may be best served in joining and volunteering with a local bus preservation group to get yourself started. You’ll get to be involved in the work, attend rallies, gain contacts, knowledge and friends. You may decide that’s enough for you, or you may then decide to take on your own vehicle but you’ll have an excellent knowledge base and a support network around you.
I know it can be daunting joining a group, but most are friendly and will welcome with open arms someone willing to roll up their sleeves!!
The other benefit of being involved through a society is that you can adapt your involvement as life changes; if you get a new job with different working pattern, get married/divorced/have children your own project may end up neglected but as part of a society you can just reduce your involvement and others can fill in.
 

carlberry

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If I understand correctly, you can drive a coach with certain types of licence without needing a PSV licence, provided that you do not drive it for hire or reward (so could drive it as your own personal transport).
It has to be more than 30 years old and you cant carry more than 8 people. I've fairly sure I'd been told that this right only applied to licenses issued sometime before 1999 when a rule changed however the government site about it (link below) dosent specific that:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...you-can-drive-using-your-car-or-lorry-licence
 

carlberry

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Jp4712's comments cover things very comprehensibly. When I started asking about the same thing many years ago the best bit of advise I got was dont! Clearly I ignored that, but only after reviewing the major issues.
Basically you're buying and driving something like 8 tonnes of scrap metal and each day it's kept outside accelerates the process towards it being scrapped without you're able to deal with the deterioration yourself (painting and body repairs).

Currently the coach market is going through a change as companies have to get PSVAR compliant vehicles for coach services. This means older none PSVAR coaches are really worth little more than scrap value, especially if they haven't got seat belts.
Obviously if a company has really looked after it (refurbished inside, replaced outer panels, respray etc) then it'll be worth more however it'll be less original.
If it's still got a class 6 MOT it'll be worth a bit more however it should then have been recently inspected as well. If it's lost it's class 6 then it's going to be a case of how long has it been hanging around for and how difficult is it to get a class 5 MOT for it. Otherwise you need to find somebody with trade plates or a tow wagon to move it.
 
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I wasn’t referring to any specific failed project, I was trying to say that in general the failure rate is very high - perhaps 50% of buses that are sold for preservation don’t last ten years. This is entirely unsubstantiated but the failure rate really is terrifying, I have many photos of buses entering preservation that end up scrapped, converted to a caravan etc. I hope no one regards either of my two vehicles illustrated as ‘failed’! ;)
I think your estimate of 50% might be a bit low! Years ago I looked at buying a Bristol LH (stottie box to me!) with a view to using it as a motor home, fortunately I came to my senses.
 

Martin2012

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Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to respond and provide me with this extremely helpful information.
 

ValleyLines142

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It is a very expensive process. Save up as much as you can. Two of my friend's own an ex-First West of England Wright Renown (as well as more recently an ex-First London Marshall), and they've had to invest in a LOT of money to keep it going!
 
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