Thameslink Dec 2019 - Where are we at?

BingBong50 · 15 Dec 2019

A lot has happened since the disaster of the May 2018 timetable introduction but where are we at? Have all the intended services now been introduced or is there some way to go? Whats the latest on the way services are operated through the core and automation? What can we expect in the future for Thameslink?

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Failed Unit · 15 Dec 2019

Unfortunately not. On the Great Northern side the following are not yet in play.

1. Cambridge- Maidstone East (rumoured to never happen - stock unreliable, signals on core not capable)
2. Welwyn Garden City - Sevenoaks (December 2020)
3. Peak Gordon Hill - Moorgate (Maybe May 2020)
4. 4tph weekends suburban service Moorgate - Welwyn / Hertford (forgotten about)

I am sure we have a missing service from the Thameslink side. But for my local station the service is still worse than May 2018 in terms of frequency and speed of trains.

Horizon22 · 15 Dec 2019

Failed Unit said:
Unfortunately not. On the Great Northern side the following are not yet in play.

1. Cambridge- Maidstone East (rumoured to never happen - stock unreliable, signals on core not capable)
2. Welwyn Garden City - Sevenoaks (December 2020)
3. Peak Gordon Hill - Moorgate (Maybe May 2020)
4. 4tph weekends suburban service Moorgate - Welwyn / Hertford (forgotten about)

I am sure we have a missing service from the Thameslink side. But for my local station the service is still worse than May 2018 in terms of frequency and speed of trains.

Number 2 is just extending the current Blackfriars terminators though correct?

Failed Unit · 15 Dec 2019

Horizon22 said:
Number 2 is just extending the current Blackfriars terminators though correct?

correct. Looks like this can be done with minimal timetable changes and the same amount of rolling stock. It is just they 1. Don’t have ATO and 2. Know if they can run with more that 20tph even with it.

Supercoss · 15 Dec 2019

Limited ATO started off peak 10 am - 3 pm on Thursday 12th Dec to allow driver familiarisation

Horizon22 · 15 Dec 2019

Failed Unit said:
correct. Looks like this can be done with minimal timetable changes and the same amount of rolling stock. It is just they 1. Don’t have ATO and 2. Know if they can run with more that 20tph even with it.

Are they expecting to run this with 717s then, with the current 8-car 700s displaced? The more knowledgeable you get about GTR, you realise its actually the Great Northern part which is by far the worst.

Failed Unit · 15 Dec 2019

Horizon22 said:
Are they expecting to run this with 717s then, with the current 8-car 700s displaced? The more knowledgeable you get about GTR, you realise its actually the Great Northern part which is by far the worst.

It will run as 700s. It replaces the following peak trains.

southbound
X.02 and x.32 WGC to kings cross.

northbound
X.06 and x.36 kings cross - WGC.

When you look at the timetable it works (based on following Horsham - Peterborough northbound.)

currently the stock inter works with Kings Cross - Cambridge. Unsure if this will be a problem.

If it happens and it appears it is a big if, it would really be welcomed. Most of us from stations north of London heading into the core would use this taking some of the load off the Cambridge- Kings Cross.

JonathanH · 15 Dec 2019

Horizon22 said:
Are they expecting to run this with 717s then, with the current 8-car 700s displaced? The more knowledgeable you get about GTR, you realise its actually the Great Northern part which is by far the worst.

No - 700s already run the relevant 2Yxx Welwyn Garden City semi-fasts which will go to Sevenoaks - e.g. ones like this https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W46967/2019-12-16/detailed

Don't forget that Kings Cross loses a suburban platform fairly soon which will mean these services have to go to Thameslink rather than Kings Cross.

hwl · 15 Dec 2019

Maidstone East requires the completion of Ashford Chart Leacon works to enable electrostars to be kicked out of the Hitachi depot so some 700s can be looked after / stabled there.

Failed Unit · 15 Dec 2019

hwl said:
Maidstone East requires the completion of Ashford Chart Leacon works to enable electrostars to be kicked out of the Hitachi depot so some 700s can be looked after / stabled there.

true. But I read that they are not sure if the core and many flat junctions south of London Bridge can take it. Coupled with the fact the 700s MTIN is about ⅓ of what they expected. It appears the chances of this service ever operating appear slim. The article i read also stated the core probably can’t take 24tph.

hopefully as an insider you may hear more positive things then what is in the press.

Horizon22 · 15 Dec 2019

I believe Chart Leacon progress is going at the blistering speed of about zero right now

Horizon22 · 15 Dec 2019

Failed Unit said:
true. But I read that they are not sure if the core and many flat junctions south of London Bridge can take it. Coupled with the fact the 700s MTIN is about ⅓ of what they expected. It appears the chances of this service ever operating appear slim. The article i read also stated the core probably can’t take 24tph.

hopefully as an insider you may hear more positive things then what is in the press.

I certainly think it would suffer around New Cross and Hither Green, but if that could somehow be timetabled to work, it would be much easier once it reaches the Chatham reversible lines. Souutheastern's timetable is pressed enough as it is.

philjo · 15 Dec 2019

The Cambridge to Brighton service is still hourly on Saturdays. One of the stoppers from Kings Cross currently terminates at Royston. The other stopper to Cambridge leaves Stevenage 5 minutes after the semi fast from Brighton then a 55 minute gap so effectively an hourly service to Cambridge on Saturdays from GN stations at the moment. Though they also regularly cancel some of these services on Saturdays due to lack of drivers available.

bramling · 15 Dec 2019

JonathanH said:
No - 700s already run the relevant 2Yxx Welwyn Garden City semi-fasts which will go to Sevenoaks - e.g. ones like this https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W46967/2019-12-16/detailed

Don't forget that Kings Cross loses a suburban platform fairly soon which will mean these services have to go to Thameslink rather than Kings Cross.

Putting the Welwyn to KX services into the core on its own won’t release a platform, as it would simply mean the Cambridge to KX services get a longer turnaround. This could however be worked round by extending the incoming timings by a couple of minutes so it occupies the platform after the outgoing service has vacated, rather than arriving just before as it does now. In theory this could be done as things are now with the four peak services and work all four off one platform. The snag is that a train approaching the home signal blocks the core junction, not a problem if everything is on time as the ShamblesLink/ is booked to run just ahead of the stopping service, but a risk if things run late.

JonathanH · 15 Dec 2019

Isn't the point that the Cambridge train is also meant to vacate Kings Cross as well and run through to Maidstone?

717001 · 15 Dec 2019

Failed Unit said:
Unfortunately not. On the Great Northern side the following are not yet in play.

1. Cambridge- Maidstone East (rumoured to never happen - stock unreliable, signals on core not capable)
2. Welwyn Garden City - Sevenoaks (December 2020)
3. Peak Gordon Hill - Moorgate (Maybe May 2020)
4. 4tph weekends suburban service Moorgate - Welwyn / Hertford (forgotten about)

I am sure we have a missing service from the Thameslink side. But for my local station the service is still worse than May 2018 in terms of frequency and speed of trains.

Think 4 will happen in 2020, once the Moorgate cleaning project is complete. Would be good to think it could be May, but suspect it is more likely to be Dec.

jon0844 · 15 Dec 2019

As someone said above, ATO is now operational off-peak in the day (I think it also includes 9pm to 5am?) through the core and will be fully enabled next March. Rumours are 379s will come to GN to free up some 700s for the new routes (I must admit, I'm confused given I assumed the whole timetable plan was based on there being sufficient 700 units).

Next May is still the planned date for the final timetable changes. Best get those fingers crossed now!

jon0844 · 15 Dec 2019

717001 said:
Think 4 will happen in 2020, once the Moorgate cleaning project is complete. Would be good to think it could be May, but suspect it is more likely to be Dec.

As the work finishes mid May, when the new timetable will begin, it may well be December unless the next summer timetable has the extra services put in, but they don't begin straight away?

bramling · 15 Dec 2019

JonathanH said:
Isn't the point that the Cambridge train is also meant to vacate Kings Cross as well and run through to Maidstone?

Yes but this seems to be some considerable way off. Not to mention that this service would represent the worst performance risk of all, on both sides of the river - at the moment the long turnarounds are a blessing.

bramling · 15 Dec 2019

jon0844 said:
As someone said above, ATO is now operational off-peak in the day (I think it also includes 9pm to 5am?) through the core and will be fully enabled next March. Rumours are 379s will come to GN to free up some 700s for the new routes (I must admit, I'm confused given I assumed the whole timetable plan was based on there being sufficient 700 units).

Next May is still the planned date for the final timetable changes. Best get those fingers crossed now!

I can’t see what they would do with some spare 8-car 700s, except perhaps to use them on something like Southern metro where the interior layout would bring benefits. King’s Cross to Welwyn and Cambridge really doesn’t need a metro interior. The stored 365s would be perfect but for the SDO issue at Meldreth, Shepreth and Foxton. It is 12-car 700s where there is a shortage, but lengthening on its own does not solve the problem as there is also a shortage of stabling.

Could perhaps reform some 700/0s to 12 cars for Luton to Rainham, but I can’t see them doing that. Unless something’s afoot involving the 707s of course.

Need2 · 15 Dec 2019

jon0844 said:
As someone said above, ATO is now operational off-peak in the day (I think it also includes 9pm to 5am?) through the core and will be fully enabled next March.

I don't know where that comes from..........
In theory it might be able to be used but in practice, I do not know of one driver who has been trained on it!

Failed Unit · 15 Dec 2019

jon0844 said:
As someone said above, ATO is now operational off-peak in the day (I think it also includes 9pm to 5am?) through the core and will be fully enabled next March. Rumours are 379s will come to GN to free up some 700s for the new routes (I must admit, I'm confused given I assumed the whole timetable plan was based on there being sufficient 700 units).

Next May is still the planned date for the final timetable changes. Best get those fingers crossed now!

The shortage of 700s is purely down to reliability. They were ordered to have an MTIN of around 40k. Reality is closer to 13k. I guess they have a while to sort this but I understand they may need to at least temporarily bring in other stock on the London - Cambridge so the 700s can cover elsewhere.

seen the 379 rumour myself. No idea why the 365s are not considered. Available now, drivers / fitters train. Move the shacks stops to Cambridge- Brighton to avoid SDO mods.

bramling · 15 Dec 2019

Failed Unit said:
The shortage of 700s is purely down to reliability. They were ordered to have an MTIN of around 40k. Reality is closer to 13k. I guess they have a while to sort this but I understand they may need to at least temporarily bring in other stock on the London - Cambridge so the 700s can cover elsewhere.

seen the 379 rumour myself. No idea why the 365s are not considered. Available now, drivers / fitters train. Move the shacks stops to Cambridge- Brighton to avoid SDO mods.

It would make sense if 700s are becoming due for maintenance and/or some kind of reliability modifications, and availability is insufficient to release units without causing stock shortage.

The easiest way of doing it would be to steal 6x387 from the peak Peterborough services, backfill with stored 365s (which to use an in phrase are oven ready!), and use the 6x387 to replace 3x700/0 off KX-Cambridge/Welwyn. The only potential snag I can see is if there's any traction knowledge issues with the 387s, both with who will be crewing them on the KX-Cambridge/Welwyn services, and in terms of taking them off the Peterborough route so reducing exposure to Peterborough crews. In the longer term it could then lead into keeping the extra 365s on the Peterborough route, and using the 387s to make up more 12-cars in conjunction with the 2tph to Kings Lynn (if that ever happens!).

I've always thought that the villages would be better served with 1tph off the Cambridge/Brighton, as this would give them an hourly London service. It would then be practicable to drop one of the KX-Cambridge stopping services back to Letchworth, as barring the villages these services carry fresh air north of Letchworth - except when the Cambridge-Brighton service is disrupted which is of course a good proportion of the time!

jon0844 · 15 Dec 2019

I've heard of taking on two more 365s too, but ultimately given they need dispatching at night at some stations they are going to be of limited use beyond where 365s already operate, and so 379s don't have that problem.

jon0844 · 15 Dec 2019

Need2 said:
I don't know where that comes from..........
In theory it might be able to be used but in practice, I do not know of one driver who has been trained on it!

Trains have already been using it in public service since the start of the week! It is precisely to train drivers before it is permanently enabled in March.

Failed Unit · 15 Dec 2019

I suspect they probably are not that different to the 387s for the crew. But I guess as stated earlier using them on the peak extras instead of the 387s is probably the easy solution. If the 387s can go to work on London - Cambridge instead.

Class 170101 · 15 Dec 2019

Do the 387s to Peterborough ever do any work requiring 110mph capability? If its only 100mph can the 365s still keep to Class 387 timing?

bramling · 15 Dec 2019

jon0844 said:
I've heard of taking on two more 365s too, but ultimately given they need dispatching at night at some stations they are going to be of limited use beyond where 365s already operate, and so 379s don't have that problem.

One wonders if the 2x365 could refer to keeping 365511/39 longer?

The night dispatch wouldn’t be an issue if they could cover the 6x387s which go from/to Peterborough.

bramling · 15 Dec 2019

Class 170101 said:
Do the 387s to Peterborough ever do any work requiring 110mph capability? If its only 100mph can the 365s still keep to Class 387 timing?

The GN 387s are limited to 100mph, and currently run to 365 timing load - so no problem in this regard, for the foreseeable future at least.

GW43125 · 15 Dec 2019

Class 170101 said:
Do the 387s to Peterborough ever do any work requiring 110mph capability? If its only 100mph can the 365s still keep to Class 387 timing?

GN 387s aren't 110 cleared.

Thameslink Dec 2019 - Where are we at?

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