Suggestions for improving the range of destinations served from Liverpool

Mogz · 21 Jan 2020

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...iverpool-to-xc-network-no-speculation.198733/

the risk of falling into speculation, it would not just be those wanting to go from one end to the other who would benefit. It would be anyone wanting to travel from north/south of New Street without having to change e.g Runcorn-Oxford, Liverpool-Winchester etc. There are many permutations.

I wonder whether it would be possible each day to 'swap' one or two of Manchester's trains to Bournemouth to serve Liverpool instead.

Manchester could get the LNWR New Street Semi-Fast paths at those times in return.

The original post was to ask if ther were any concrete plans. I think that question has been answered conclusively.

Perhaps the mods could sever this at this point and stick it in speculative ideas.

RailUK Forums

JonathanH · 21 Jan 2020

Mogz said:
I wonder whether it would be possible each day to 'swap' one or two of Manchester's trains to Bournemouth to serve Liverpool instead.

Manchester could get the LNWR New Street Semi-Fast paths at those times in return.

Obvious problems include that the Manchester train comes from the South West and returns to Bournemouth, the Manchester cycle is slightly shorter than the Liverpool one, the Liverpool service goes one way as a stopper and back as a fast, it just complicates the offering, traincrew need to learn the extra routes, the Cross Country trains already have a fairly long dwell at Birmingham and I am sure there are others.

frodshamfella · 21 Jan 2020

If Liverpool could get new Glasgow and Edinburgh services running reliably, plus the introduction of South Wales services up and running, this would be a start for connecting the city better.

Mogz · 21 Jan 2020

Perhaps when the cascaded Voyagers from Avanti come on stream (assuming XC get them) some of the current Manchester-Bournemouth trains could be doubled up, with the services splitting/joining at Stafford with one unit going to Manchester and the other to Liverpool.

Djgr · 21 Jan 2020

Gareth said:
The main issue with the Liverpool-Birmingham services is not so much that they don't run through to Bristol or the south coast*; rather, it's the slowness of the services and the type of rolling stock which, though good units, are essentially outer suburban rather than intercity or regonal express. Hopefully, when LNW get the 350/4s, the route will be mostly worked by these.

The unreliability introduced by running through to London is another unwelcome development that I hope will be reversed in the near future.

*although when it comes to Liverpool vis-a-vis designated regional capitals like Manchester and Leeds; what's good for the goose is never good for the gander.

Maybe the Penkridge

Mogz said:
Perhaps when the cascaded Voyagers from Avanti come on stream (assuming XC get them) some of the current Manchester-Bournemouth trains could be doubled up, with the services splitting/joining at Stafford with one unit going to Manchester and the other to Liverpool.

Or maybe Manchester could take its fair share of the pain by taking over the Penkridge and Coseley stops from the Liverpool service.

frodshamfella · 21 Jan 2020

Djgr said:
Maybe the Penkridge

Or maybe Manchester could take its fair share of the pain by taking over the Penkridge and Coseley stops from the Liverpool service.

True !!

Meerkat · 21 Jan 2020

Djgr said:
Because they were elderly, not good on their feet and stressed easily. They ended up on the daily coach that slowly winds its way from Hampshire to Birkenhead.

To be brutally realistic you have shown an instance of passengers who would use the suggested service but have found an adequate non-car alternative - those who don’t have the ‘ability’ to make busy connections generally have the spare time to take the longer alternative. It wouldn’t seem an efficient use of paths to cater for nice to haves.

Djgr · 21 Jan 2020

Meerkat said:
To be brutally realistic you have shown an instance of passengers who would use the suggested service but have found an adequate non-car alternative - those who don’t have the ‘ability’ to make busy connections generally have the spare time to take the longer alternative. It wouldn’t seem an efficient use of paths to cater for nice to haves.

Or of course we could have a railway system that caters for where people actually want to go rather than what looks neat on an operational Powerpoint diagram

Mathew S · 21 Jan 2020

Djgr said:
Or of course we could have a railway system that caters for where people actually want to go rather than what looks neat on an operational Powerpoint diagram

By definition, the railway simply cannot cater for where everyone wants to go. However hard the industry tries, in all its parts, if you're not willing/able to change trains - despite the availablity of assistance to do so at all major stations - then your options are always going to be limited.

It's about doing what's best for the majority, and providing support for the minority as best is possible, not pandering to the whims of those who would like a once a day service from x to y, because it would suit them.

6Gman · 21 Jan 2020

Djgr said:
Maybe the Penkridge

Or maybe Manchester could take its fair share of the pain by taking over the Penkridge and Coseley stops from the Liverpool service.

I always get the impression that the Coseley stop is as much to do with pathing/ providing a third service to Brum as much as anything else.

In an ideal world there would be three Stour Valley stoppers per hour and the long-distance services would run non-stop between Wolves and Brum.

But it just can't be done on the current railway.

(Which is why I think HS2 should extend to Wolverhampton, but that's a different story ...

)

Meerkat · 21 Jan 2020

Djgr said:
Or of course we could have a railway system that caters for where people actually want to go rather than what looks neat on an operational Powerpoint diagram

Why spend a lot of money on providing a railway system for people that are already making the journey in an efficient form of transport?

vlad · 21 Jan 2020

Mogz said:
Liverpool was disconnected from the Cross Country network in 2003.

Before then, when Virgin ran the franchise, there were Cross Country trains from Liverpool to Plymouth, Poole, Portsmouth, Edinburgh and London Paddington.

You realise that Virgin continued to run the franchise after 2003 as well, right?

frodshamfella · 21 Jan 2020

Meerkat said:
To be brutally realistic you have shown an instance of passengers who would use the suggested service but have found an adequate non-car alternative - those who don’t have the ‘ability’ to make busy connections generally have the spare time to take the longer alternative. It wouldn’t seem an efficient use of paths to cater for nice to haves.

But I presume there was space in the past as these services operated, and there is still space to run such services from Manchester. If anything more passengers are using rail now, seems to me lost links as those spoke of should be reinstated .

Ianno87 · 21 Jan 2020

Mogz said:
At the risk of falling into speculation, it would not just be those wanting to go from one end to the other who would benefit. It would be anyone wanting to travel from north/south of New Street without having to change e.g Runcorn-Oxford, Liverpool-Winchester etc. There are many permutations.

I wonder whether it would be possible each day to 'swap' one or two of Manchester's trains to Bournemouth to serve Liverpool instead.

Manchester could get the LNWR New Street Semi-Fast paths at those times in return.

The original post was to ask if ther were any concrete plans. I think that question has been answered conclusively.

Perhaps the mods could sever this at this point and stick it in speculative ideas.

Start doing different things in different hours at New Street different hours, and you lose capacity. Simple as.

frodshamfella said:
I wonder how much detrimental affect this has had on the city, in terms of economic growth.

More likely a proper half hourly service connecting to a much more significant conurbation - the West Midlands has been a net economic benefit.

Dougal2345 · 22 Jan 2020

TheWalrus said:
They ran to Poole up until 2003, however I’m not sure how frequently.

I think in pre-Voyager days all cross country trains continued to Poole after Bournemouth - it was easier to run the loco round in the sidings there than it would have been at Bournemouth.

JonathanH · 22 Jan 2020

Dougal2345 said:
I think in pre-Voyager days all cross country trains continued to Poole after Bournemouth - it was easier to run the loco round in the sidings there than it would have been at Bournemouth.

They didn't. Most of the services during the day, certainly after the introduction of HSTs terminated at Bournemouth. Poole was generally served at the end of the day. Maybe it was different before that.

Old Yard Dog · 23 Jan 2020

I used to use the Liverpool - Portsmouth service quite a lot to visit the in-laws. Despite being infrequent, and often just a 2-car class 158, it was much more convenient than fighting my way on the tube from Euston to Waterloo.

But the main XC link that the north west now needs is through workings to Heathrow airport.

frodshamfella · 23 Jan 2020

Old Yard Dog said:
I used to use the Liverpool - Portsmouth service quite a lot to visit the in-laws. Despite being infrequent, and often just a 2-car class 158, it was much more convenient than fighting my way on the tube from Euston to Waterloo.

But the main XC link that the north west now needs is through workings to Heathrow airport.

That would be so useful

Ianno87 · 23 Jan 2020

Old Yard Dog said:
But the main XC link that the north west now needs is through workings to Heathrow airport.

HS2 - Old Oak Common - Heathrow will be a game-changer (and much faster)

TheWalrus · 24 Jan 2020

If I was doing it my way, I’d have XC take over the half-hourly Liverpool-Birmingham services, with 1tph to Oxford and 1tph to Bristol or Cardiff.

irish_rail · 25 Jan 2020

frodshamfella said:
That is going round the houses, and frankly no one would do it.

There is another post on here about Flybe, primarily talking about Newquay flights. My mum flew from Liverpool to Newquay with flybe last summer. It was by far the easiest and most comfortable way to do it.

I think there would certainly be enough demand from Liverpool, Runcorn, Crewe to Devon/Cornwall in the season, I would say its more holiday traffic going here.

However Southampton, Oxford, Reading, Bristol is a different story, there would be year round demand.

Plenty of Scousers in and around Plymouth. Also the city is looking to rebrand itself as a tourist destination (much the way Liverpool has in past 15 years). I'd say Plymouth to Liverpool would be very useful and well used, far more so than Plymouths constant procession of xc trains to Yorkshire and Scotland.

The Planner · 25 Jan 2020

TheWalrus said:
If I was doing it my way, I’d have XC take over the half-hourly Liverpool-Birmingham services, with 1tph to Oxford and 1tph to Bristol or Cardiff.

Lovely, good luck getting them south of Brum!

TheWalrus · 25 Jan 2020

The Planner said:
Lovely, good luck getting them south of Brum!

Any paths via Solihull??

The Planner · 25 Jan 2020

TheWalrus said:
Any paths via Solihull??

Considering we have to mess with Chiltern and WMT when we divert at a weekend for engineering works, pretty much no.

TheWalrus · 25 Jan 2020

The Planner said:
Considering we have to mess with Chiltern and WMT when we divert at a weekend for engineering works, pretty much no.

I’m imagining negotiating the Cross City line towards Cheltenham would be even worse?

The Planner · 25 Jan 2020

TheWalrus said:
I’m imagining negotiating the Cross City line towards Cheltenham would be even worse?

Not brilliant. South of Bromsgrove you are fine, just to there is a bit of a nightmare.

Ianno87 · 25 Jan 2020

The Planner said:
Not brilliant. South of Bromsgrove you are fine, just to there is a bit of a nightmare.

Simplisically, there's one long distance path in theory between every pair of CrossCity trains between Lomgbridge and Barnt Green. So 6 paths an hour.

4 are already allocated to passenger services (1 x Plymouth/Penzance, 1 x Bristol/Exeter, 1 x Cardiff, 1 x Hereford).

So 2 left. Noting that you still need space for some freight via Camp Hill (lets assume off peak), and the extra Hereford/Worcester peak service.

So in theory one path an hour remaining...which by some stroke of luck has to join up with the existing Brum-Liverpool path neatly. And not much spare capacity left for performance recovery!

adrock1976 · 25 Jan 2020

irish_rail said:
Plenty of Scousers in and around Plymouth. Also the city is looking to rebrand itself as a tourist destination (much the way Liverpool has in past 15 years). I'd say Plymouth to Liverpool would be very useful and well used, far more so than Plymouths constant procession of xc trains to Yorkshire and Scotland.

How useful would a Liverpool Lime Street - Plymouth be if it ran every 2 hours calling at Runcorn, Crewe, Shrewsbury, Hereford, Abergavenny, maybe Cwmbran, Severn Tunnel Junction, Bristol Temple Meads, Taunton, Tiverton Parkway, Exeter St Davids, Newton Abbot, Totnes, and Plymouth?

It would avoid the congestion at Birmingham, and would provide a direct service between Shrewsbury, Hereford, Abergavenny, and Bristol and Devon.

The Planner · 25 Jan 2020

adrock1976 said:
How useful would a Liverpool Lime Street - Plymouth be if it ran every 2 hours calling at Runcorn, Crewe, Shrewsbury, Hereford, Abergavenny, maybe Cwmbran, Severn Tunnel Junction, Bristol Temple Meads, Taunton, Tiverton Parkway, Exeter St Davids, Newton Abbot, Totnes, and Plymouth?

It would avoid the congestion at Birmingham, and would provide a direct service between Shrewsbury, Hereford, Abergavenny, and Bristol and Devon.

That has Open Access written all over it. Probably needs to do Western Super Mud too.

frodshamfella · 26 Jan 2020

adrock1976 said:
How useful would a Liverpool Lime Street - Plymouth be if it ran every 2 hours calling at Runcorn, Crewe, Shrewsbury, Hereford, Abergavenny, maybe Cwmbran, Severn Tunnel Junction, Bristol Temple Meads, Taunton, Tiverton Parkway, Exeter St Davids, Newton Abbot, Totnes, and Plymouth?

It would avoid the congestion at Birmingham, and would provide a direct service between Shrewsbury, Hereford, Abergavenny, and Bristol and Devon.

Maybe this should be routed via Halton Curve taking in Chester

Suggestions for improving the range of destinations served from Liverpool

Member

RailUK Forums

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member