Robertj21a
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I thought there was, invariably, a Trade Union between the management and the train staff ?
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Northern franchise to end 1 March 2020 with Operator of Last Resort to take over
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I thought there was, invariably, a Trade Union between the management and the train staff ?
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Of course why are TPE running late, generally due to the congested infrastructure.
It’ll take a lot longer than a year for anything to change.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
To betray my somewhat strange sense of humour, when I first saw the term "Operator of Last Resort", I at once thought of the management team of Blackpool Pleasure Beach, as that is the last resort that I would ever visit voluntarily these days...
Mind you, that particular management team could do no worse than the existing Northern Rail management team.
Mind you, that particular management team could do no worse than the existing Northern Rail management team.
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These words are currently in the BBC article:
The new government-owned company will be asked to prepare a plan in the first 100 days "to make sure we leave no stone unturned in improving this franchise for passengers".
Assuming it is 100 days from 1 March that will take us to about 8 June so any timetable changes will be challenging even for summer 2021. Also, would be a pity if the OLR turned every stone and found more than one can of worms or even that what Arriva was achieving should not have been theoretically possible!
The new government-owned company will be asked to prepare a plan in the first 100 days "to make sure we leave no stone unturned in improving this franchise for passengers".
Assuming it is 100 days from 1 March that will take us to about 8 June so any timetable changes will be challenging even for summer 2021. Also, would be a pity if the OLR turned every stone and found more than one can of worms or even that what Arriva was achieving should not have been theoretically possible!
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Did you mean to say "summer 2020"?
py_megapixel
Established Member
Well that's something to look forward to then. I always liked the 323s for their fast acceleration and relatively nice seats, and I hear staff like them for being solid, simple, reliable rolling stock.
But after Northern have received their planned additional 323s anyway, there will only be 9 left off lease. Whether this is just the DfT trying to sell the additional 17 323s from WMT (or indeed the remaining 331 deliveries!) as a new idea remains to be seen.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Be surprised hes got a department he showcase himself on and then pick up a bigger a job in a reshuffle in 2-3 years. For my money hes got presence, he says as it is and has carried this out as he said he would at the select committee last autumn.
Staffordian
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On 16 October 2019 (105 days ago), Grant Shapps told the Transport Select Committee that “I have already requested proposals from both Arriva and the operator of last resort, because I consider that it cannot continue operating in the current delivery method.”
Given today’s announcement, it is clear that OLR’s proposals offered a better way forward than Arriva’s. Why then is OLR taking 100 days to ‘prepare a plan’, when surely such a plan must have been the basis of DfT handing it the franchise ?
Mitchell Hurd
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What's the betting that, when Northern are taken over by Northern Trains, Class 15x trains will be considered for replacement?
woodhouse122
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Apart from the 153s (which i think should have the PRM modifications like the TFW ones) Very very slim chance
Yes the 150s were always going to be a "next franchise" issue (i.e. mid to late 2020s) so the current franchise coming to an end sooner won't change that.
Is it? I've seen people in Stalybridge complain that their Northern was late due to a late TPE, when that TPE was dealyed due to being held for a XC at York or stuck behind a Northern between York and Leeds.
People blame other TOC's but the reality is that the networks congested and the government are ultimately to blame for their lack of capacity expansion as was promised.
Kite159
Veteran Member
Some of the problems will still be there, overcrowding won't magically disappear come 1st March ("must be that evil Arriva putting single units out instead of doubles to make even more profit!"), signals & points will still fail. Northern services will still be held back for late running TPE/EMR etc services.
I see Burnham is still on his "services must be cut" but when pressed for which services he suggests should be cut, he doesn't offer an answer.
WatcherZero
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Because Arriva probably presented a plan that cost money whereas OLR didnt have any plan, so no cost!
its known that while Arriva was losing money it was a burn rate that was sustainable into 2021 before it would have defaulted.
matacaster
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Sorry Andy, the examiner is known locally as the unexamined, I should have known!
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Richard George, who appears to be in charge of the OLR Northern operation, has been working on Northern's franchise problems for months, on behalf of DfT/TfN.
There probably is a plan, but now they have to get other parties to agree to it (Mayors, TfN, NR, other TOCs etc), plus approval to spend some serious money.
That's probably what the 100 days is for.
Unlike at LNER, I can't see the MD staying on (David Brown), or many of the senior Arriva management.
the northern franchise was flawed from the very start of private sector ownership financially- although very small both regional railways north east and north west made a profit (fact) north west spent their profit upping the line speed Chester to Crewe & north east used theirs to provide the loop at Dewsbury.
passenger numbers have risen massively every year since privatisation, yet arriva required a £769m subsidy until mid January when they defaulted on their franchise agreement.
passenger numbers have risen massively every year since privatisation, yet arriva required a £769m subsidy until mid January when they defaulted on their franchise agreement.
Fisherman80
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That wouldn't be a bad idea. When she was head of the previous Northern franchise she came across as a very hands on boss who got things done. She did an interview with Rail magazine once and it was a great read.
Glenn1969
Established Member
I take it this shiny new masterplan will be told not to bother suggesting building new platforms in Manchester because we are waiting for HS2/NPR for that? Which is precisely why I don't think OLR will make much difference
Royston Vasey
Established Member
Burnham comes across as very well informed and pragmatic on the technical and operational aspects of his local network. He's been working quite intensively and intelligently on local rail improvement projects for some time and it shows. In stark contrast to the blow-hard know-nothing Mayor of Cambridgeshire and his regular opportunistic attacks on the railways.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
My recollection is a bit different.
NWT was quickly into financial trouble and had to be bailed out by First Group (forming FNW).
MTL made a pig's ear of Northern Spirit and had to be bailed out by Arriva (forming ATN) along with Merseyrail.
The infrastructure improvements you mention were down to Railtrack as a hang-over from BR plans and had nothing to do with the private TOCs.
The franchise just ending was supposed to sharply reduce the subsidy of the former Serco-Abellio operation but they didn't get close to the target.
Remember the DfT officials said the 2015 franchise could not afford new trains, but they were overruled by the Sec of State to ensure the removal of Pacers.
That will have locked in significant extra cost/subsidy.
And all this ignores the "do nothing" decade when Labour was in charge.
Nope, timetables take almost a year from request to EIS, remember the sequence that caused the May 2018 debacle (and Arriva were the fuse that time)!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Though FNW was reasonably competent. Wasn't Heidi Mottram involved in that pre-Northern?
I hope Alex Hynes stays as far away as possible - we need solid management and concrete improvements, not bluster.
Unsurprisingly the BBC News report just now on the 10pm News have a rather one sided view with barely a mention of the core reasons of why Northern are struggling. For those who may not know much about railways will get the impression that the government don't really have any control over the railways, when obviously they do.
Would also have been better to hear responses from more experts rather than commuters who responses aren't really going to be insightful
Would also have been better to hear responses from more experts rather than commuters who responses aren't really going to be insightful
He does now, since the Manchester Evening News got a grip on the issue, and nationalisation and possibly even the chance of himself being involved in the running of the service became a close prospect.
Go back 6-12 months and he was just full of blaming it all on Northern.
The media love a comment from a random in the street, who knows nothing.
We had them for 3 years on Brexit, asking anyone they found in every street in the country, and we get them on these sorts of stories as well.
I won’t comment on the main image behind Huw being a picture of a train from the previous franchise!
TheSel
Member
I may have missed something - in which case, please shout up - but won't there have to be a new application for derogation for the use of the 142s?
My understanding is that the letter from the Dept for Transport dated 4/12/19 (https://assets.publishing.service.g...rthern-class-142-2020-dispensation-letter.pdf) states:
... The dispensation applies to operation of the vehicles by Arriva Rail North only and restricts operation so that they are only scheduled to operate when coupled with compliant units; ...
[my emboldening and underlining, for clarity of my point]
Similar derogations apply for the other non-compliant units, although the terms set out in the letters differ slightly, and some were issued on different dates.
And if a derogation is required, how can the Dept for Transport even-handedly do this for a Government Operator? It wouldn't exactly be seen as an independent decision?
My understanding is that the letter from the Dept for Transport dated 4/12/19 (https://assets.publishing.service.g...rthern-class-142-2020-dispensation-letter.pdf) states:
... The dispensation applies to operation of the vehicles by Arriva Rail North only and restricts operation so that they are only scheduled to operate when coupled with compliant units; ...
[my emboldening and underlining, for clarity of my point]
Similar derogations apply for the other non-compliant units, although the terms set out in the letters differ slightly, and some were issued on different dates.
And if a derogation is required, how can the Dept for Transport even-handedly do this for a Government Operator? It wouldn't exactly be seen as an independent decision?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
What says it has to do it even-handedly?
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