Raul_Duke
Member
- Joined
- 29 Mar 2014
- Messages
- 397
Is the overcrowding used as a political football / lazy journalistic filler as much abroad?
And in those countries where compulsory reservations apply there may well not be overcrowding, but what we don't know is how many were simply unable to travel. Compulsory reservations somewhat hide the issue of underprovision because there's no real way to record people who were turned away.
I would say (just as the UK rules define it) that that depends on the nature of the service.
On very short distance metro type services including trams and buses with a standee seating layout e.g. longitudinal, this is to be expected at any time, and overcrowding would to me indeed be based on it being impossible to board or very uncomfortable.
On medium-distance regional services, I would expect a seat off-peak but some standing in the peaks. A crush-load would be overcrowding even if everyone got to travel.
On InterCity type long distance services, if anyone is standing because they have to (some choose to) then that is overcrowded, except for exceptional situations like major events.
I've been on Moscow Metro trains where it's been physically impossible to move due to the number of people in the carriage.
It fascinates me where everyone comes from, as in the 2-3 minutes between the departure of one train and the arrival of the next, the completely empty platform will fill up again.
I think I remember this. Wasn't it a mini series about Mumbai and how it's rail system has grown in recent years. As you say you had to see it to believe it. Compelling watching for sure. Indian Rail should have an interesting next few years, possibly with high speed rail which this documentary seemed to be indicating at the end. The days of huge clag clouds from diesels may well be numbered thereI can remember a few years ago seeing a TV programme (Bombay Railway) about commuter trains in Mumbai, India. Now that is real overcrowding, and makes the tube in the rush hour seem like a Sunday school tea party.
I stood for nearly two hours (in a crowded lobby with one foot in the stairwell and the other on floor level, with backpack and suitcase, along with maybe 40 others similarly encumbered, to say nothing of the hundreds in the rest of the train) on a Regionale from Genova to Milano Centrale last July. It was a Sunday and extremely hot (fortunately the aircon was working). All the Intercity trains that day were fully booked so I had no other option. I love Italy and I love Trenitalia but efficiency-wise, at least in that part of the country, it is hard to see the difference between that and Northernland where I live.
Brussels - Oostende can be quite busy too. Although not near standing room only.
Thing is though, are we really the only country in Europe to suffer these overcrowding issues on trains?
I think I remember this. Wasn't it a mini series about Mumbai and how it's rail system has grown in recent years. As you say you had to see it to believe it. Compelling watching for sure. Indian Rail should have an interesting next few years, possibly with high speed rail which this documentary seemed to be indicating at the end. The days of huge clag clouds from diesels may well be numbered there
But other Western European countries have updated their infrastructure to compensate though, that's why I thought the overcrowding wasn't the problem it is here.When The Victorians built the railways they weren't catering for a 70 million population. Same throughout western Europe.
But other Western European countries have updated their infrastructure to compensate though, that's why I thought the overcrowding wasn't the problem it is here.
Interesting. I suspect one of the spin-offs of the substantial increase in services on the route is that the decent stock is spread more thinly and the older ones are pretty knackeredNope, just the hourly Rychlik. https://www.vagonweb.cz/razeni/vlak.php?zeme=CD&kategorie=R&cislo=708&nazev=Vltava&rok=2019 seems to suggest extra coaches are added Mon-Fri and on Sundays, but for some reason it's only load 4 on Saturdays.
But other Western European countries have updated their infrastructure to compensate though...
But other Western European countries have updated their infrastructure to compensate though, that's why I thought the overcrowding wasn't the problem it is here.
Did you spot any rodents running about in there?It was a rather interesting series - featuring the famous Mumbai "super dense crush load". I know this is OT for the thread, but a lot of Indian cities have been really struggling with transport. The suburban rail networks of the big cities weren't built for the two-way commuting that a lot of the new tech campuses have brought (and a lot of their planning was based on building big motorways... that abruptly finish and don't help the traffic at all). Places like Hyderabad have been desperately congested, but the suburban network is a handful of trains that have to somehow fit round the main inter-city services. Some are hourly at best, and can often run 30, 60, 90 minutes late. The death rates due to trespass are horrific.
Now the cities are investing in metro systems, and that's making a huge difference, but many have been plagued with construction problems, corruption and bust contractors. I do worry about some of the build quality. If you want to see an example of how it can go wrong, look at Chennai's 90s/00s extension to its MRTS suburban rail network. Tamil Nadu notoriously struggles with corruption, but poor quality and poor maintenance has left part of the system looking like a post-apocalyptic hellscape, where people have narrowly escaped parts of buildings collapsing on them.
I stumbled upon this a few years ago - I'd been working in Hyderabad, and had headed down to the Tamil coast for the weekend. I caught a bus up to Chennai for the night train back. Chennai bus station is awful - bad location, bad connectivity, and just generally chaotic, so I spotted an MRTS station (in one of the tech areas) - Indira Nagar - and jumped off. I regretted this immediately, as the building I approached was clearly abandoned and closed off. Ah, no, there's someone coming out. This, but with the doors all shut, as it was the weekend:
This was built in 2004! I can't find an image of the inside, but it's a big, barely-lit hall of crumbling concrete with screeching escalators and a lift that I wouldn't look at sideways. Platform level was scarcely better, but at least it was more exposed (this is a shot framing it as really bad at the end of the platform - the main section wasn't badly built, just not really maintained):
I know it's easy to point at India for crowding and failed infrastructure, but the people who work in these tech areas have been failed, both by local government and by the massive companies setting up there. Corruption looms large.
Anyway, sorry for the OT diversion. Whenever people tell me we "literally have a third world railway" here, I think of my experiences working in and travelling round India (certainly parts other than Mumbai and Delhi - although I could tell you how dysfunctional parts of the much-lauded Delhi metro are) and realise just how far off that statement is.
Did you spot any rodents running about in there?
One thing that I have noticed while travelling on the continent is that first class typically only costs a little bit more than standard. It often does not come with complementary food (there’s a restaurant car for that), however.
I understand that on BR traditionally first class cost one third more than the comparable standard class ticket.
Nowadays there does not seem to be such a link.
On Cross Country I often see First Class virtually empty while Standard is packed to the rafters.
If First Class still only cost 1/3 more I would be sometimes tempted to go for it, which would free up room in Standard.
As things are I can’t afford it so I’ll have to continue taking up space in the corridor or aisle.
In most cases there is no complimentary food on the continent for first apart from the similar titbits like you get here. In that respect LNER and Virgin West Coast gave a good deal but I'm not sure if that will continue for too long with another First group partner as it seems to be their modus operandi to downgrade services, although the GWR Pullman services are good quality.One thing that I have noticed while travelling on the continent is that first class typically only costs a little bit more than standard. It often does not come with complementary food (there’s a restaurant car for that), however.
I understand that on BR traditionally first class cost one third more than the comparable standard class ticket.
Nowadays there does not seem to be such a link.
On Cross Country I often see First Class virtually empty while Standard is packed to the rafters.
If First Class still only cost 1/3 more I would be sometimes tempted to go for it, which would free up room in Standard.
As things are I can’t afford it so I’ll have to continue taking up space in the corridor or aisle.
In most cases there is no complimentary food on the continent for first apart from the similar titbits like you get here. In that respect LNER and Virgin West Coast gave a good deal but I'm not sure if that will continue for too long with another First group partner as it seems to be their modus operandi to downgrade services, although the GWR Pullman services are good quality.
Back OT- does anyone think that a +1/3 or +1/2 fare for first class would ease overcrowding in standard?