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double decker loses roof in York

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43066

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Believe it or not the majority of drivers don't set out to do this kind of thing. Obviously there's no excuse however, if you're a car driver who drives a regular commute, you're likely to have experienced the situation where you get to one end of the journey and cant actually remember most of it. This is a standard human response because the brain basically operates in auto pilot mode; it's done this before; if it does this then this happens and the end result is this. It's basically how we learn and get better because the brain dosent have to work as much on stuff it already knows.
Transpose that to driving a bus and you have a situation where you're constantly having to correct parts of that, especially if you're in the position of swapping between single and double deckers. It's very easy to say 'there's a warning sign' however if you're driving a double deck bus it actually looks identical to a single deck bus except for a small sign which is likely to look much like any other small sign, you'll have perception of hazards left and right because you can see them however it's impossible for the brain to perceive the hazard about it because it cant see it.

Again, there is no excuse for it, however it's worth remembering that there's a human being involved and they're fairly aware that a momentary error can maim or kill somebody (compared with the other examples where a lorry driver might smash up a few pallets of fizzy drink or somebody may be unable to get out of the door they wanted to use).

That’s very similar to the situation of driving a train where the cab of a 4 car looks identical to the cab of an 8 car.

As you rightly say, repetitive behaviour is prone to human error and mistakes need to be guarded against. This is where “non technical skills“ come in - displaying a formation reminder, marking train length on the diagram etc.

In a bus driving context, perhaps drivers could put a large sheet of paper onto the dashboard to remind them they’re driving a double decker.

As professional drivers, it’s down to the individual to be aware of the risks, and to do whatever works for them to ensure these mistakes don’t happen.
 
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richw

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I wonder how expensive it would be to fit buses with the technical equivalent of that linked to a GPRS warning system that would give an audible announcement to the driver if he entered a road with an obstruction or which had a weight limit over a weak bridge etc.

And to answer the above posts yes as a professional driver myself I am well aware that all vehicles are engineered to absorb the energy of impacts in order to limit that being directed into the occupants which would cause injury
Our ticket machines have a GPS fitted, as does the next stop announcement and display info working through the Hanover blind. That ticket machine system is widely used so I wonder if it could be programmed to sound alarms if you’re on a road with restricted height/width/length rules
 

mr williams

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Imagine you’re a bus driver, you do a certain route day in day out and it is normally a single decker route. One day, due to a shortage of single deckers, control schedule a double decker onto the route. Think most people would just clock onto their shift and drive the bus without stopping to think about clearance levels of bridges etc.

That is what happened in what was probably one of the worst accidents of this nature in this country. In the summer of 1981 (or it might have been 82) a double-decker was assigned to a day trip from Pontypool & Cwmbran to the seaside at Porthcawl. Trouble was, the pick-up route followed that of a local service bus which was single-deck only due to several low bridges. The bus smashed into the bridge on the old Eastern Valley line just outside Cwmbran and IIRC the death toll on the top deck was five or six.
 

Deerfold

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Our ticket machines have a GPS fitted, as does the next stop announcement and display info working through the Hanover blind. That ticket machine system is widely used so I wonder if it could be programmed to sound alarms if you’re on a road with restricted height/width/length rules

It's possible. However the system needs to have all the details of those restrictions put in. I don't think there's any publically available source for this information nationwide in a suitable electronic format.
 

richw

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It's possible. However the system needs to have all the details of those restrictions put in. I don't think there's any publically available source for this information nationwide in a suitable electronic format.

where or how do the higher end satnavs do it? Presumably the info must be somewhere for them to use?
 

carlberry

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where or how do the higher end satnavs do it? Presumably the info must be somewhere for them to use?
The data is either much more expensive to license or proprietary for each company. If the government actually cared about low bridge smashes, and the associated problem of large vehicles getting wedged in small villages, they'd make it a requirement of GPS systems (at any price bracket) to offer width/height/weight restriction filtering.
 

carlberry

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That’s very similar to the situation of driving a train where the cab of a 4 car looks identical to the cab of an 8 car.

As you rightly say, repetitive behaviour is prone to human error and mistakes need to be guarded against. This is where “non technical skills“ come in - displaying a formation reminder, marking train length on the diagram etc.

In a bus driving context, perhaps drivers could put a large sheet of paper onto the dashboard to remind them they’re driving a double decker.

As professional drivers, it’s down to the individual to be aware of the risks, and to do whatever works for them to ensure these mistakes don’t happen.
I agree that it's down to the individual however things like a piece of paper/train length etc all rely on the 'higher' brain functions that involve more processing whereas the more basic ones (getting the bits of a bus or car that I can see through a gap that I can also see) rely on very basic functions, and even here individuals are prone to mistakes (or start relying on technology).
The problem for buses is trying to identify technology that wont be distracting or produce too many false positives because, as soon as it does, it ends up being repetitive and gets ignored of course!
 

AndrewE

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where or how do the higher end satnavs do it? Presumably the info must be somewhere for them to use?
We have this discussion almost every time there is a bridge bash! Commercial Satnavs do exist, but in their T&C they decline liability if it lets someone down (not surprisingly.)
What I do find surprising is that the road haulage lobby (including some on here) use that as an excuse to claim that they "don't work." I accept that even responsible professional drivers will make mistakes, but this seems to be used as an excuse to do nothing in the majority of cases.
The industry is never going to engage with the problem adequately until a few negligent managers end up behind bars, which just doesn't happen in the UK.
 

Tom B

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I wonder how expensive it would be to fit buses with the technical equivalent of that linked to a GPRS warning system that would give an audible announcement to the driver if he entered a road with an obstruction or which had a weight limit over a weak bridge etc.

They have this already, don't they? Catch a service W7 or 210 towards Finsbury Park, and as you approach the terminus, as well as the signs, there's always an alarm audible reminding the driver to turn right.
 

padbus

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Rather than fitting every bus and truck with complex electronics, wouldn't it be easier to fit a detector on the approach to each bridge that would activate lots of red lights and flashing signs if it detected an overheight vehicle coming. That would work with any vehicle including articulated lorries which may have different trailers from day to day and also any foreign trucks that make their way to this country.
 

AndrewE

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a) they don't work (there is video of a US example being driven into by a lorry-
) and
b) that puts the cost onto the rest of us, rather than being borne by the industry creating the risk
 

padbus

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a) they don't work (there is video of a US example being driven into by a lorry-
) and
b) that puts the cost onto the rest of us, rather than being borne by the industry creating the risk
Who is creating the risk? The owners of the vehicles or the owners of the bridges which are obstructing the highway?
 

AndrewE

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Who is creating the risk? The owners of the vehicles or the owners of the bridges which are obstructing the highway?
Oh dear, here we go again!
Lots of minor roads are far too narrow for modern HGVs: should we open them all out every that time bigger vehicle length or widths (or weights) get approved?
 

Tetchytyke

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The industry is never going to engage with the problem adequately until a few negligent managers end up behind bars, which just doesn't happen in the UK.

I don't think it would even need prison. If the delay compensation and repair costs paid out by NR were passed on- in full- to the culprit, it would cut out a lot of this. Especially for HGV drivers who tend to be much worse.

Accidents and mistakes happen, but a clobber to the wallet focuses minds.
 

SCH117X

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Possibly more applicable to the US lorry video but bridges are normally marked lower than they are. Typically in the UK bridges are 6 inches / 150mm higher than marked for safety and road resurfacing purposes
 

AndrewE

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I don't think it would even need prison. If the delay compensation and repair costs paid out by NR were passed on- in full- to the culprit, it would cut out a lot of this. Especially for HGV drivers who tend to be much worse.
Accidents and mistakes happen, but a clobber to the wallet focuses minds.
Unfortunately I think that it would just be paid by their insurance - and the costs consequently picked up by the rest of us. I have a feeling that it's only fines that insurance won't cover.
 
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Unfortunately I think that it would just be paid by their insurance - and the costs consequently picked up by the rest of us. I have a feeling that it's only fines that insurance won't cover.
As far as I am aware, most bus companies effectively self insure. Drivers don't hit bridges because they don't care about the consequences.
 

Eyersey468

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As far as I am aware, most bus companies effectively self insure. Drivers don't hit bridges because they don't care about the consequences.
The company I drive for has an insurance excess of £50000 so effectively are self insured for the majority of incidents
 

AndrewE

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As far as I am aware, most bus companies effectively self insure. Drivers don't hit bridges because they don't care about the consequences.
The company I drive for has an insurance excess of £50,000 so effectively are self insured for the majority of incidents
I couldn't really believe it when the "self-insured" line was stated in another thread - especially as BR had a £50 million bond lodged somewhere.
A £50,000 excess might be OK for a bus or lorry company, but I'll bet the full costs of a serious bridge bash will be far higher than that, probably by several orders of magnitude.
So as I said, we all end up paying for it.
 

Eyersey468

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I couldn't really believe it when the "self-insured" line was stated in another thread - especially as BR had a £50 million bond lodged somewhere.
A £50,000 excess might be OK for a bus or lorry company, but I'll bet the full costs of a serious bridge bash will be far higher than that, probably by several orders of magnitude.
So as I said, we all end up paying for it.
Yes the costs will be a lot higher than that. We are only 3rd party insured as well so if its our fault we have to pay our own repairs.
 

Deerfold

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the public don’t need it, the organisations who use the machines need it

I'm not sure what your point is.
I'm saying companies can't instantly access it unless they already have their own data set. It's a non-trivial task to create a complete data set.
 

philthetube

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Not sure there’s any excuse for professional drivers making mistakes like that. As far as I’m aware most commercial vehicles, from vans upwards, have their height clearly displayed in the driver’s cab.

As for the double versus single decker situation, tough. If a train driver regularly drives an eight car train over a route, guess whose fault it will be if he stops short on the day he’s given a ten car?!

Correct, no excuses but it happens in the same way as all other incidents.

It is the train drivers fault if he stops short, unless he has been given incorrect info about the length of the train in the same way as it is the bus drivers fault if he hits a bridge, unless he has incorrect info about the height of either the bridge or bus, I am not sure what your point is?

I couldn't really believe it when the "self-insured" line was stated in another thread - especially as BR had a £50 million bond lodged somewhere.
A £50,000 excess might be OK for a bus or lorry company, but I'll bet the full costs of a serious bridge bash will be far higher than that, probably by several orders of magnitude.
So as I said, we all end up paying for it.

A bond lodged for a company self insuring would be way above £50.000 The bond would have to cover the full costs of all claims, which could include deaths.
an excess means that the company have to pay the first 50.000 (in this case) of any claim and then the insurance company cover the rest.
 

43066

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Correct, no excuses but it happens in the same way as all other incidents.

It is the train drivers fault if he stops short, unless he has been given incorrect info about the length of the train in the same way as it is the bus drivers fault if he hits a bridge, unless he has incorrect info about the height of either the bridge or bus, I am not sure what your point is?

I was responding to a poster who had said that drivers might simply clock onto their shift and drive without considering the height of their vehicles. That is an unacceptable approach for professional drivers to take, in my view.
 

richw

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£10m I believe is death liability so would have to exceed that
Correct, no excuses but it happens in the same way as all other incidents.

It is the train drivers fault if he stops short, unless he has been given incorrect info about the length of the train in the same way as it is the bus drivers fault if he hits a bridge, unless he has incorrect info about the height of either the bridge or bus, I am not sure what your point is?



A bond lodged for a company self insuring would be way above £50.000 The bond would have to cover the full costs of all claims, which could include deaths.
an excess means that the company have to pay the first 50.000 (in this case) of any claim and then the insurance company cover the rest.
 

Bovverboy

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Maybe there's a case for an entirely new bus (and lorry) design that puts the driver at the highest point. If the driver sees a bridge immediately in front of their face they are more likely to stop. Obviously, the mechanical workings of such a vehicle would need to be different to today's norm but there is no reason why, with all the new technology entering the market, there cannot be a new way of doing this, too.
Like this?

https://hrs51.jimdofree.com/tramway...ses-all-over-the-world/fbw-hochlenkerbus-239/
 
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