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Emergency permissive working

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pompeyfan

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Question for drivers, signallers and in general people that know what they’re talking about.

recently I’ve seen there’s been an increase in emergency permissive working to reduce the risk of egressing by having an unsignalled movement of 2 trains in one signal block.

what protection is there to prevent a collisions. With failed train assistance dets etc are placed, I gather that’s not the case with EPW?
 
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ComUtoR

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Nevermind, read the post wrong :/
 
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lineclear

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Emergency permissive working only takes place in station platforms. The driver of the second train will know exactly where the platform is, and therefore where the train in front is.
 
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Eccles1983

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You don't use dets in areas that are permissive.

In practice the signaller will tell you what is happening, as you will have to pass a signal at danger. You come to a clear understanding of the movement and then carry it out.

It's not overly complicated and there is no more risk of collision over that of permissive working. The risk you have is not fitting into the platform properly as the signaller does not know how much of the platform is clear due to a lack of permissive track circuits.
 
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LAX54

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Eccles1983 said:
You don't use dets in areas that are permissive.

In practice the signaller will tell you what is happening, as you will have to pass a signal at danger. You come to a clear understanding of the movement and then carry it out.

It's not overly complicated and there is no more risk of collision over that of permissive working. The risk you have is not fitting into the platform properly as the signaller does not know how much of the platform is clear due to a lack of permissive track circuits.
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The Signalman will have ascertained how long the train is that is already there, and ask the driver of the 2nd, how long, too long, and will not be permitted.
 
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Taunton

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swills said:
The Signalman will have ascertained how long the train is that is already there, and ask the driver of the 2nd, how long, too long, and will not be permitted.
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This regularly seems not to have happened. The recent collisions at both Norwich and Plymouth were where the train patently did not fit the platform but the signaller was seemingly expecting the passengers to leave by the front door only, just on the platform.

I do separately wonder how drivers can manage to run their own cars on sight on the motorway at 70mph going to and from shift, but seemingly then have issues with pulling trains forward knowing another one is ahead.
 
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theironroad

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swills said:
The Signalman will have ascertained how long the train is that is already there, and ask the driver of the 2nd, how long, too long, and will not be permitted.
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The second train that is entering the station under Emergency permissive working does NOT have to be fully accommodated.

The whole rationale behind EPW is to allow at least the front door to on the platform to allow passengers to exit the train direct onto the platform via local door operation. It's far more preferably than trying to do a controlled evacuation into the cess.

I terms of additional protection, as has been mentioned EPW only occurs at stations rather in middle of yonder and after being authorised to pass the protecting signal at danger, the driver will proceed on the Rules 101 caveat of 'proceed at caution, being prepared to stop short of any obstruction'.
 
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theironroad

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Taunton said:
This regularly seems not to have happened. The recent collisions at both Norwich and Plymouth were where the train patently did not fit the platform but the signaller was seemingly expecting the passengers to leave by the front door only, just on the platform.

I do separately wonder how drivers can manage to run their own cars on sight on the motorway at 70mph going to and from shift, but seemingly then have issues with pulling trains forward knowing another one is ahead.
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Unless I'm thinking of a different incident, the Plymouth one was a train entering under signalled permissive working not emergency permissive working, not sure about Norwich.
 
ComUtoR

ComUtoR

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Taunton said:
I do separately wonder how drivers can manage to run their own cars on sight on the motorway at 70mph going to and from shift, but seemingly then have issues with pulling trains forward knowing another one is ahead.
Click to expand...

How many rear end collisions are there a year ? How many at speed, how many in a queue of traffic, coming to a stand or a bump when parking. Humans, gotta love them.
 
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smsm1

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I've had an occasion in the past year at Ely where the train to Ipswich unexpectedly went to the far end of platform 2 and everyone running to get it. Turned out the signaller had asked the driver to go as far up the platform so that another train could also get into platform 2 behind them due to the disruption that was happening, and was part of the plan to recover.
 
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