Proposed abandonment of Smart Motorways

Bletchleyite · 17 Feb 2020

gswindale said:
What would you rather drive down?
A "dumb" motorway where you could come across a stricken vehicle in any plans with very little warning;
A "smart" motorway where you will have greater warning that there is an obstruction up ahead.

3. A motorway with all of the "smart" features e.g. variable speed limits, enforcement, stationary vehicle detection and signage, but with a permanent conventional hard shoulder, as some of the earliest smart motorways were e.g. parts of the M25.

That one, that one there. Probably the safest and most effective road that can be imagined.

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Meerkat · 17 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
3. A motorway with all of the "smart" features e.g. variable speed limits, enforcement, stationary vehicle detection and signage, but with a permanent conventional hard shoulder, as some of the earliest smart motorways were e.g. parts of the M25.

That one, that one there. Probably the safest and most effective road that can be imagined.

Not as effective in flow terms as one with an extra lane instead of a hard shoulder.

AndrewE · 17 Feb 2020

Meerkat said:
Not as effective in flow terms as one with an extra lane instead of a hard shoulder.

... but a lot safer!

cactustwirly · 17 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
3. A motorway with all of the "smart" features e.g. variable speed limits, enforcement, stationary vehicle detection and signage, but with a permanent conventional hard shoulder, as some of the earliest smart motorways were e.g. parts of the M25.

That one, that one there. Probably the safest and most effective road that can be imagined.

That was how the original trial (M42 3+) was done

Meerkat · 17 Feb 2020

AndrewE said:
... but a lot safer!

Define “a lot”. The major problem imo is that the monitoring is clearly not as good as expected.
For the system to work the lane closures should be near instant.

AM9 · 17 Feb 2020

Meerkat said:
Define “a lot”. The major problem imo is that the monitoring is clearly not as good as expected.
For the system to work the lane closures should be near instant.

... and of course motorists to instantly obey the signage telling them to get out of the LH lane and get into the remaining lanes.

AndrewE · 17 Feb 2020

Meerkat said:
Define “a lot”. The major problem imo is that the monitoring is clearly not as good as expected.
For the system to work the lane closures should be near instant.

but it is not and they aren't, so these motorways are nowhere near as safe as they could be! Wasn't there some (bad) publicity suggesting that the cameras were checked so infrequently by control-room staff that it might be 20 minutes before they spotted a car stopped in the inside lane? (A function of the number of staff and the number of things they had to do, rather than an allegation of negligence.)

Bald Rick · 17 Feb 2020

cactustwirly said:
That was how the original trial (M42 3+) was done

It wasn’t. The M42 on the east side of Birmingham was the first smart motorway trial, with variable speed limits and variable hardshoulder running.

What @Bletchleyite is referring to (I think!) is something that doesn’t exist (in this country) - all the bells and whistles of a smart motorway with total CCTV coverage, traffic speed detection, full info signs, variable speed limits, speed cameras, a permanent and a continuous hard shoulder for use as a traditional hard shoulder only, ie never for traffic.

Bletchleyite · 18 Feb 2020

Bald Rick said:
It wasn’t. The M42 on the east side of Birmingham was the first smart motorway trial, with variable speed limits and variable hardshoulder running.

What @Bletchleyite is referring to (I think!) is something that doesn’t exist (in this country) - all the bells and whistles of a smart motorway with total CCTV coverage, traffic speed detection, full info signs, variable speed limits, speed cameras, a permanent and a continuous hard shoulder for use as a traditional hard shoulder only, ie never for traffic.

Yes, that's what I mean. All of the features except that the permanent hard shoulder remains and is never used as a running lane.

It does exist - the early implementations on the M25 were (and I think still are) like that, and there are odd sections like that elsewhere too.

Meerkat · 18 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Yes, that's what I mean. All of the features except that the permanent hard shoulder remains and is never used as a running lane.

It does exist - the early implementations on the M25 were (and I think still are) like that, and there are odd sections like that elsewhere too.

But then they needed more capacity, and that needed another lane.....

Bletchleyite · 18 Feb 2020

Meerkat said:
But then they needed more capacity, and that needed another lane.....

...which they should have built, retaining the hard shoulder.

I think hard shoulder running has big issues, as does all-lane running, however the rest of the concepts are excellent and I'd like to see them on the entire network.

Meerkat · 18 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
...which they should have built, retaining the hard shoulder.

I think hard shoulder running has big issues, as does all-lane running, however the rest of the concepts are excellent and I'd like to see them on the entire network.

Building yet another lane on Motorways is generally not economically nor environmentally practicable.
It is admittedly a massive example of the huge difference in the safety expectations between rail and road.

Bletchleyite · 18 Feb 2020

Meerkat said:
It is admittedly a massive example of the huge difference in the safety expectations between rail and road.

Which is something I am very conscious of, and as I've said I hold the view that additional railway safety improvement spending should cease entirely because it is poor value per life saved compared with spending the same money on road safety or on rail service improvements/fare cuts to reduce car use.

Maybe we should have a thread on that, I'll create one.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ty-good-value-or-should-it-be-stopped.200600/

nidave · 18 Feb 2020

They should share the data on the overhead gantries with google, tomtom, here, waze, and everyone else where it warns you on the apps that there is an issue or reduced speed (as well as taking the data from the crowdsourced information like waze). It would be mutually beneficial for both parties to share this data as its really easy to report things on waze like an accident

Bletchleyite · 18 Feb 2020

MightyTRexUK said:
They should share the data on the overhead gantries with google, tomtom, here, waze, and everyone else where it warns you on the apps that there is an issue or reduced speed (as well as taking the data from the crowdsourced information like waze). It would be mutually beneficial for both parties to share this data as its really easy to report things on waze like an accident

Yes, that would be a good idea (also to repeat the gantry limit onto the app so people get overspeed warnings etc). They also I think get data from the Trafficmaster network.

Greybeard33 · 18 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Yes, that's what I mean. All of the features except that the permanent hard shoulder remains and is never used as a running lane.

It does exist - the early implementations on the M25 were (and I think still are) like that, and there are odd sections like that elsewhere too.

Part of the M60, J8 - J18, is a smart motorway with variable speed limits, cameras etc. but retains a permanent hard shoulder. Hard shoulder running was not permitted because air pollution levels in this area already exceeded legal limits and an extra traffic lane would have made it worse.

The adjoining M62 section, J18 - J20, has all lane running.

D365 · 18 Feb 2020

It's interesting to note that construction works on the M1 J13-16 smart motorway are still ongoing. If smart motorways do end up being cancelled, surely all we'd end up with is a bunch of new gantries and a heavily refurbished hard shoulder.

carriageline · 18 Feb 2020

The southern part of the M25 (between 6 and 5 anti clockwise) they’ve just started some roadworks. There are 2 worksites, both have a sign stating “emergency refuse area trial retrofit”, and both sites are half a mile or so apart. So it seems work is happening to try and improve safety. The irony is the first weeks of it being in, I saw at least one accident there every night

I’ve heard a rumour the M23 will remain 50mph when reopened until they add more refuse areas in.

Busaholic · 18 Feb 2020

The hard shoulder is there for a good reason, just as having a car tax disc attached to the window was. The partial abandonment of one, and the total abolition of the other, were mostly made for financial reasons (as in, saving of government spending) and just as the paper tax disc going as led to a massive increase in evasion (or non-payment for other reasons) by DVLA's own estimates, as against a decrease in evasion suggested by government spokesmen at the time, so scrapping of a hard shoulder has led to many more deaths and accidents than were predicted. It's fairly obvious to me, driving since 1981 and with about 600,000 car miles in this country, and having had mechanical/electrical problems while driving on motorways a few times, that the possibility of steering the car onto a hard shoulder without causing an accident is much more feasible than looking for the next 'refuge', possibly two miles distant. I've had a car totally cut out on me at 70 mph in a fast lane, which was a terrifying experience, but I was lucky, it was dry and in daylight and I hadn't anything on my tail. I survived, as did the car, but I got rid of it shortly afterwards. The hard shoulder wasn't an option for me on that occasion, but it was on the others, and I was forever grateful for it., especially when I had an engine fire.

AM9 · 18 Feb 2020

carriageline said:
The southern part of the M25 (between 6 and 5 anti clockwise) they’ve just started some roadworks. There are 2 worksites, both have a sign stating “emergency refuse area trial retrofit”, and both sites are half a mile or so apart. So it seems work is happening to try and improve safety. The irony is the first weeks of it being in, I saw at least one accident there every night

I’ve heard a rumour the M23 will remain 50mph when reopened until they add more refuse areas in.

I saw one on the M25 northern stretch but the sign read "Emergency Refuge Are Trial Retrofit". Maybe there is a problem with fly tipping on the southern stretches.

Bald Rick · 18 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
It does exist - the early implementations on the M25 were (and I think still are) like that, and there are odd sections like that elsewhere too.

Of course, not sure why they said they don’t exist, major brain fade!

Islineclear3_1 · 19 Feb 2020

A large chunk of the M20 is currently being upgraded to a smart motorway with no hard shoulder and refuges every 2 miles or so.

Doesn't sound like smart motorways are being abandoned at all

Bletchleyite · 19 Feb 2020

D365 said:
It's interesting to note that construction works on the M1 J13-16 smart motorway are still ongoing. If smart motorways do end up being cancelled, surely all we'd end up with is a bunch of new gantries and a heavily refurbished hard shoulder.

Presumably it would retain the other beneficial features which are good for both road safety and the environment (having successfully reduced the prevailing speed from 80-90 to 70) as well as for congestion reduction. I would like to see a permanent hard shoulder retained, but would also like to see the rest of the system applied, in due course, to the whole motorway network and possibly some major A-roads (e.g. the North Wales Coast Expressway) as well.

ComUtoR · 19 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
3. A motorway with all of the "smart" features e.g. variable speed limits, enforcement, stationary vehicle detection and signage, but with a permanent conventional hard shoulder, as some of the earliest smart motorways were e.g. parts of the M25.

That's what I have near me. Accidents are rife.

'Smart' motorways manage congestion, lane closures and provide information but they don't magically make the motorway safe.

Bletchleyite · 19 Feb 2020

ComUtoR said:
That's what I have near me. Accidents are rife.

'Smart' motorways manage congestion, lane closures and provide information but they don't magically make the motorway safe.

They make it safer than it would be without those measures, e.g. by reducing the prevailing speed from 80-90 to 70mph and by reducing speeds during obstructions etc. They also benefit the environment by the lower speeds and reduced congestion.

There is no "absolutely safe" with road travel, you can't apply railway type standards to it. It's all about improvements, and (other than hard shoulder running) they absolutely do that.

Islineclear3_1 · 19 Feb 2020

I'm all for providing information providing it isn't too much and distracts from the road but the M20 is natorious for accidents and I fear getting rid of the hard shoulder is just going to increase these

ComUtoR · 19 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
They make it safer than it would be without those measures, e.g. by reducing the prevailing speed from 80-90 to 70mph

The Maximum speed limit is 70mph. A smart motorway doesn't reduce it from 80-90 :/ Your gonna have to explain that as I don't get where your coming from.

and by reducing speeds during obstructions etc. They also benefit the environment by the lower speeds and reduced congestion.

This I agree with. They do manage congestion and provide information. This is something I do like about smart motorways, although they don't often get it right.

There is no "absolutely safe" with road travel, you can't apply railway type standards to it. It's all about improvements, and (other than hard shoulder running) they absolutely do that.

Who's applying railway type standards ? Or is that your preconception of what I'm saying because I work for the railway ?

I drive approx 30 miles a day on the motorway (not a lot in the grand scheme of things). I do a lot of leisure travel on the motorway too. If there is to be any real improvements to safety there needs to be a real look at the root cause of incidents and accidents. The stuff I see on a daily basis is quite shocking.

There is a section of motorway near me that I use on a regular basis. It is a 70mph motorway with no lighting. Frankly it can be quite scary because it gets so dark. The lit section makes a dramatic difference. I would rather see more investment into lighting the motorway than having a sign that reduces my speed because of congestion.

Road quality also plays a huge part. Generally I find that they do take care of the carriageway but when it starts to wear or you have places where you get pools of water during the slightest drop of rain, you get an increase in accidents.

You also get a lot of accidents around junctions. Smart motorways do not specifically improve that. However, on my section of smart motorway you always see the reduced speed as you approach the congested junction every morning. This isn't really reducing accidents. It's for congestion. Sadly because you get a local traffic lane on the left for the first junction. You get a scary situation where you have lanes of traffic that are slow moving/stationary but have a local traffic lane at 70mph. You get many rear ends because people are using the local lane to try and beat the congestion and cut in.

Islineclear3_1 · 19 Feb 2020

ComUtoR said:
There is a section of motorway near me that I use on a regular basis. It is a 70mph motorway with no lighting. Frankly it can be quite scary because it gets so dark. The lit section makes a dramatic difference. I would rather see more investment into lighting the motorway than having a sign that reduces my speed because of congestion.

I feel for you there. I drive regularly on a motorway with no lighting. In open country, it is pitch black and scary, especially in the winter months and if there is mist or rain.

Meerkat · 19 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
They make it safer than it would be without those measures, e.g. by reducing the prevailing speed from 80-90 to 70mph

That’s why I don’t like them! Not convinced the tiny improvement in safety is worth the distractions caused by speed cameras

bramling · 19 Feb 2020

Islineclear3_1 said:
I feel for you there. I drive regularly on a motorway with no lighting. In open country, it is pitch black and scary, especially in the winter months and if there is mist or rain.

I find unlit motorways lovely in the middle of the night when it’s actually possible to have the main beam headlamps on for long periods - no problems with visibility then.

Unfortunately most of the time this isn’t possible.

Proposed abandonment of Smart Motorways

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